[QUOTE=Loach]
It is possible to get charged just for carrying, lets say, a leatherman but only if you say something like “I was going to go stab my mother.” Just carrying a pocket knife will not most likely not get you charged with the crime but it is possible depending on the circumstances. Thats why I mentioned it.
[/QUOTE]
Quite different than saying, “I carry it for self defense” while having no reason for one to suspect he was carrying it for illegal purposes.
[QUOTE=Campo]
No. How extraordinary the circumstances are does not make my argument meaningless.
You said, “It is illegal to carry a gun (it is nearly impossible to get a carry permit) just in case someone might need to be shot.”
Whether it is nearly impossible to get a carry permit is what’s irrelevant. It is not illegal to carry a gun “just in case someone might need to be shot.” THAT’S WHY CARRY PERMITS ARE GIVEN!
[/QUOTE]
No. Carry permits in New Jersey are mostly given to retired cops. They are not given out for personal protection or self defense except under extraordinary (and very rare)circumstances. It’s like bringing up playing the lottery in a discussion about financial planning. Yes it’s possible but so rare as to be meaningless. In ten years of law enforcement and 40 years of living in the state I have yet to meet someone with a carry permit that is not a retired cop. I have met a couple of people who hit the lotto jackpot.
As to your argument. You claim to be a cop? Try this. It’s called case law. Wright v. New Jersey. Read it. I’ve made my point. Maybe if you read what the New Jersey Supreme Court says you will understand it. I hope you work the NY side.
[QUOTE=Richard Parker]
Video of the SOG Flash II .
[/QUOTE]
Thanks. The one handed quick release action makes it look damned illegal to me. That is exactly what the law is supposed prevent people from having. Due to the actual mechanism involved I’m not 100% sure a judge would agree. I am not aware of any case which involves this particular knife. I can definately say that you shouldn’t carry it. I can think of no manifestly appropriate circumstance for carrying a knife like that.
[QUOTE=Loach]
Thanks. The one handed quick release action makes it look damned illegal to me. That is exactly what the law is supposed prevent people from having. Due to the actual mechanism involved I’m not 100% sure a judge would agree. I am not aware of any case which involves this particular knife. I can definately say that you shouldn’t carry it. I can think of no manifestly appropriate circumstance for carrying a knife like that.
[/QUOTE]
Agreed, except insofar as I think the judge would be very likely to dismiss the charge if the OP was in his home.
Again, IANAL, but the law is very clear about what is banned, and this knife simply does not fit in that category (perhaps by design), regardless of the intention of the law. I don’t see where there’s room for judge discretion. That said, being right about the law is a small concession after being arrested and tried.
I don’t think the OP ought to discontinue use of the knife within his home because he’s afraid some cop might not know the details of the switchblade ban. There might be some legal hassle, but given the likelihood that the issue would even come up, it seems negligible.
[QUOTE=Richard Parker]
Agreed, except insofar as I think the judge would be very likely to dismiss the charge if the OP was in his home.
Again, IANAL, but the law is very clear about what is banned, and this knife simply does not fit in that category (perhaps by design), regardless of the intention of the law. I don’t see where there’s room for judge discretion. That said, being right about the law is a small concession after being arrested and tried.
I don’t think the OP ought to discontinue use of the knife within his home because he’s afraid some cop might not know the details of the switchblade ban. There might be some legal hassle, but given the likelihood that the issue would even come up, it seems negligible.
[/QUOTE]
I can’t disagree with any of that. I don’t see him getting in trouble for having it in the house. Carrying it would be a problem. After all the man in my above link was convicted of carrying an exacto knife and in was upheld by the NJSC.
[QUOTE=Loach]
I can think of no manifestly appropriate circumstance for carrying a knife like that.
[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes:
Opening boxes, cutting twine, any task where you don’t have to put down what you are working on to open your pocket knife maybe? I can think of lots of legitimate uses for a single handed opening knife. That is why I carry one.
The point that Richard Parker made is the same one I have been saying since the start of this post, I can’t get to illegal based on the cite you posted. I also agree that it would be a pain in the ass to be arrested and have to go to court to be proven right.
What specifically is it about how that knife opens that makes you feel it is illegal? There was nothing in your cite that looking damn illegal was in fact illegal.
[QUOTE=Rick]
:rolleyes:
Opening boxes, cutting twine, any task where you don’t have to put down what you are working on to open your pocket knife maybe? I can think of lots of legitimate uses for a single handed opening knife. That is why I carry one.
The point that Richard Parker made is the same one I have been saying since the start of this post, I can’t get to illegal based on the cite you posted. I also agree that it would be a pain in the ass to be arrested and have to go to court to be proven right.
What specifically is it about how that knife opens that makes you feel it is illegal? There was nothing in your cite that looking damn illegal was in fact illegal.
[/QUOTE]
Because it opens like a switchblade. The manufacturer may have made enough changes to the design to get around the law, or maybe they didn’t. The judge would have to decide. The standard of the law is “manifestly appropriate” not “legitamate use”. Any blade, baseball bat, ax or other tool has a legitamate use. The reason why you are carrying it must be “manifestly apparent”. For instance you are carrying a box cutter because you work in a warehouse, you have a hunting knife because you are going hunting, you have a knife and a fishing pole, you are Martin Yan. The conviction of the guy with the exacto knife was upheld because he could not prove he had a manifestly appropriate use of it even though I’m sure you can think of a hundred legitimate uses.
ETA I will look to see if there were any cases where a knife like this was deemed legal or not in New Jersey. I’m not sure how easy it would be to find.
[QUOTE=Loach]
Because it opens like a switchblade. The manufacturer may have made enough changes to the design to get around the law, or maybe they didn’t. The judge would have to decide. The standard of the law is “manifestly appropriate” not “legitamate use”. Any blade, baseball bat, ax or other tool has a legitamate use. The reason why you are carrying it must be “manifestly apparent”. For instance you are carrying a box cutter because you work in a warehouse, you have a hunting knife because you are going hunting, you have a knife and a fishing pole, you are Martin Yan.
[/QUOTE]
Heh, the same Martin Yan who used to sign off his cooking show with, “If Yan can dooo it, you can dooo it!” I never realized he was offering legal advice.
ETA: Don’t bother with the search, Loach. I already did it. No luck.
Going back to the Op and ignoring the bulk of the excellent debate in this thread, it would appear that carrying this knife in public in NJ could cause you some problems in NJ.
I think this is the gist of what **Count Blucher ** was looking to clarify.
My limited experience is that carrying anything more than a swiss army knife or leatherman can lead to many extra questions from a NJ police officer. I use to carry a knife with a 4" blade and a good marlin spike on it for sailing. I was giving a hard time for having it on my belt in a park. (This was after a sail was over.)
Like Count Blucher, I tend to trust **Loach’s ** information on NJ law. He has a good feel for what actually gets enforced.
Jim
[QUOTE=Loach]
Because it opens like a switchblade.
[/QUOTE]
See this is my problem. Your cite says
There is no button on the handle, ergo it is not a switch blade. The hand pressure is applied to the blade. The law it appears is very specific in naming the handle. No mention of the blade. This knife and many many other use a stud attached to the blade to assist in opening.
[QUOTE=Loach]
No. Carry permits in New Jersey are mostly given to retired cops.
[/quote]
For the last time, how is this relevant to disproving anything I’ve said?
[QUOTE=Loach]
They are not given out for personal protection or self defense except under extraordinary (and very rare)circumstances. It’s like bringing up playing the lottery in a discussion about financial planning. Yes it’s possible but so rare as to be meaningless.
[/quote]
It’s in no way analogous to the lottery. They’re carried for self defense and defense of others regardless of how rare carry permits are.
[QUOTE=Loach]
As to your argument. You claim to be a cop? Try this. It’s called case law. Wright v. New Jersey. Read it. I’ve made my point.
[/quote]
I’m going to assume there’s more to this case than you’d like there to be. First of all, he was carrying a boxcutter in his sock. Different than a knife.
From your cite (bolding mine):
Are you going to tell me that carrying pepper spray for self defense purposes is not manifestly appropriate in NJ?
[QUOTE=Campo]
For the last time, how is this relevant to disproving anything I’ve said?
It’s in no way analogous to the lottery. They’re carried for self defense and defense of others regardless of how rare carry permits are.
[/QUOTE]
For now I’ll assume that you don’t understand and are not being obtuse on purpose. I did not say that getting a carry permit is analogous to the lottery. I said that talking about concealed carry permits in New Jersey in a discusion about self defense is like talking about the lottery in a discussion about finacial planning. Damn good analogy. In New Jersey no one gets a permit for self defense or the defense of other as you put it. If you apply for a carry permit and state “self defense” you will not get a permit. Ever. As one of my cites stated as of a few years ago there were 3000 permits given out from a population of 8.5 million. And almost all of them were retired law enforcement. To get a permit you have to prove extraordinary circumstances. Like you are a diamond merchant who carries millions of dollars in product routinely. How would that be analogous to someone who just feels the need to carry something due to some vague feeling that he needs to protect himself? It is such a rare occurance that it is meaningless to your argument. Whatever your argument is. If you are argueing that it is legal to carry a weapon in New Jersey for self defense you are wrong. There are only two exceptions to that. You can carry a gun if you get a carry permit. Obviously I have shown that is not an actual option. It won’t happen. The other is you are allowed to carry pepper spray. This is also controlled. You can only carry one container and it has to be 3/4 of an ounce or less. That’s it. Anything else you may have on you that can be used as a weapon must be there for another reason. If you have a problem with that contact these people they agree with you.
[QUOTE=Campo]
I’m going to assume there’s more to this case than you’d like there to be. First of all, he was carrying a boxcutter in his sock. Different than a knife.
[/QUOTE]
Now I know you are just playing with me. That case proves my whole point. He was carrying a knife. He was charged with possesion of a weapon. The NJ Supreme Court upheld the verdict because he didn’t prove that the knife was on him for a manifestly appropriate reason. It makes my point even more since it was an exacto knife, something that is designed as a tool and not a weapon. If *that * was upheld as being illegal to possess then what do you think the court would do with a SOG thingy like in the OP. According to your argument all he had to say was that it was for self defense and he would have walked away. Sorry the NJSC doesn’t agree with you. I don’t know what the sock has to do with it. If it is for self defense why would it matter if it was in the sock or pocket? Either would be fine as long as it was for self defense right? I don’t remember seeing any sock exemption in the law, maybe I missed it. Do you even remember what you are arguing about?
[QUOTE=Campo]
Are you going to tell me that carrying pepper spray for self defense purposes is not manifestly appropriate in NJ?
[/QUOTE]
In one statute they define what a weapon is. In another statute they state what the exemptions are. That’s how the law is laid out. If you know a law enforcement officer maybe he can explain it to you. NJSA 2C:39-6 enumerates all the exemptions to the weapons laws. Mostly it states that LEOs are exempt. In fact it has a separate paragraph for each type of LEO. It’s quite boring. A few highlights. 2C:39-6(3)i states that a non-felon over 18 can possess one can of pepper spray not more than 3/4 of an ounce. That is the only exemption for personal safety in the statute. When it mentions knives it only talks about transporting to and from hunting and fishing. No exemption for having a knife for personal protection.
[QUOTE=Loach]
For now I’ll assume that you don’t understand and are not being obtuse on purpose. I did not say that getting a carry permit is analogous to the lottery. I said that talking about concealed carry permits in New Jersey in a discusion about self defense is like talking about the lottery in a discussion about finacial planning. Damn good analogy. In New Jersey no one gets a permit for self defense or the defense of other as you put it.
[/quote]
I’m being obtuse? I never said that those who would like to get a carry permit for self defense or any other reason will get one. I tried to make that clear to you several times. I’m quite aware of how difficult it is to obtain.
[QUOTE=Loach]
Now I know you are just playing with me. That case proves my whole point. He was carrying a knife.
[/quote]
It doesn’t prove your point and he was not carrying a knife. An “exacto” knife is not a knife. You’re grasping at straws
[QUOTE=Loach]
It makes my point even more since it was an exacto knife, something that is designed as a tool and not a weapon.
[/quote]
Actually, it makes your point less effective since it’s less likely to be used for self-defense for the reasons you just gave.
You are ignoring the point I made from your very cite. Your cite says:
“Any person who knowingly has in his possession any other weapon under circumstances not manifestly appropriate for such lawful uses as it may have is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree.”
It then goes on to list the folowing:
“any weapon or other device which projects, releases, or emits tear gas or any other substance intended to produce temporary physical discomfort or permanent injury through being vaporized or otherwise dispensed in the air.”
I’ll ask again: Are you going to tell me that carrying pepper spray for self defense purposes is not manifestly appropriate in NJ?
[QUOTE=Campo]
I’m being obtuse? I never said that those who would like to get a carry permit for self defense or any other reason will get one. I tried to make that clear to you several times. I’m quite aware of how difficult it is to obtain.
[/QUOTE]
Then why do you keep bringing it up?
[QUOTE=Campo]
It doesn’t prove your point and he was not carrying a knife. An “exacto” knife is not a knife. You’re grasping at straws.
[/QUOTE]
It’s not a straw. It’s a legal precedent. Find me one where it is legal to carry a knife or any other weapon for self defense.
[QUOTE=Campo]
Actually, it makes your point less effective since it’s less likely to be used for self-defense for the reasons you just gave.
[/QUOTE]
Please edit for intelligence. You are saying it doesn’t equate because he was convicted of carrying a weapon with an item that is less likely to be a weapon? Since a knife is more likely to be a weapon someone won’t be charged with carrying a weapon?
[QUOTE=Campo]
You are ignoring the point I made from your very cite. Your cite says:
“Any person who knowingly has in his possession any other weapon under circumstances not manifestly appropriate for such lawful uses as it may have is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree.”
It then goes on to list the folowing:
“any weapon or other device which projects, releases, or emits tear gas or any other substance intended to produce temporary physical discomfort or permanent injury through being vaporized or otherwise dispensed in the air.”
I’ll ask again: Are you going to tell me that carrying pepper spray for self defense purposes is not manifestly appropriate in NJ?
[/QUOTE]
I will go through this slowly and for the last time. 2C:39-5 covers unlawful possession of a weapon. Part of chapter 39 has the definition of a weapon that you list which would include pepper spray. 2C:39-6 then goes on to list exemptions to the previous statute. Oddly enough it is titled “exemptions”. The pertinent part states:
Your question is moot. A small cannister of pepper spray is exempted from what is stated in 2C:39-5. Doesn’t matter if it is manifestly appropriate to carry for self defense purposes. You are allowed to carry it because it is exempted from the provisions of 2C:39-5. Show me where a knife has such an exemption. Find me a cite were there is such an exemption. There is none. A knife can not be carried in New Jersey for self defense.
Again, what is your point?
Loach when you get a moment, if you would, please answer my question from post #50.
Thanks
[QUOTE=Rick]
Loach when you get a moment, if you would, please answer my question from post #50.
Thanks
[/QUOTE]
After watching that video many many times I think my initial opinion was wrong. I would say it is legal to own in New Jersey. (That button he is pushing is a safety, right? Thats what I am basing this on.) I do think that if the legislature saw how it opens it would probably join the list of the banned since it opens just as fast as a switchblade.
[QUOTE=Loach]
Then why do you keep bringing it up?
[/quote]
What is wrong with you? I don’t keep bringing it up- YOU DO!
This started with you saying, “It is illegal to carry a gun (it is nearly impossible to get a carry permit) just in case someone might need to be shot.”
Why you phrase self-defense as “in case someone might need to be shot” is beyond me. It is not illegal to carry a gun for self defense if you are legally allowed to carry a gun, and you keep claiming this is somehow irrelevant because a carry permit is difficult to obtain. IRRELEVANT! You are the one to keep bringing this up, so cut the bullshit!
[QUOTE=Loach]
It’s not a straw. It’s a legal precedent.
[/quote]
The subject had several outstanding arrest warrants and had an exacto knife in his sock. At no time is it apparent that he claimed to be carrying it for self-defense. An exacto knife is no more a knife than a guinea pig is a pig, so stop claiming this 21 year old court case set a precedent for the illegality of carrying knives. Why is it relevant that he had it in his sock? Besides the fact that exacto knives aren’t typically carried for self- defense, he never claimed he was carrying it for self-defense, and exacto knives aren’t knives, hiding things that must be carried for manifestly appropriate reasons in your sock may have been used as evidence that one may not be carrying it for appropriate reasons.
[QUOTE=Loach]
Find me one where it is legal to carry a knife or any other weapon for self defense.
[/quote]
Now you’re saying no weapons can be carried for self-defense?
Find me one that says you can carry a Frisbee in your glove compartment.
[QUOTE=Loach]
Please edit for intelligence. You are saying it doesn’t equate because he was convicted of carrying a weapon with an item that is less likely to be a weapon?
[/quote]
You enjoy twisting words, don’t you? I said it was less likely to be carried for self-defense.
[QUOTE=Loach]
2C:39-5 covers unlawful possession of a weapon.
[/quote]
Look at this section:
“gravity knives, switchblade knives, daggers, dirks, stilettos, or other dangerous knives, billies, blackjacks, bludgeons, metal knuckles, sandclubs, slingshots, cestus or similar leather bands studded with metal filings or razor blades imbedded in wood “
What is a non-dangerous knife? I’m not a lawyer, but I find it curious that it lists “dangerous knives” and not just knives. I have to wonder that maybe that is meant to include other illegal type knives such as gravity knives, switchblade knives, etc. that they may have not listed and does not include knives of a legal type.
[QUOTE=Loach]
After watching that video many many times I think my initial opinion was wrong. I would say it is legal to own in New Jersey. (That button he is pushing is a safety, right? Thats what I am basing this on.) I do think that if the legislature saw how it opens it would probably join the list of the banned since it opens just as fast as a switchblade.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks buddy.
[QUOTE=Campo]
What is wrong with you? I don’t keep bringing it up- YOU DO!
This started with you saying, “It is illegal to carry a gun (it is nearly impossible to get a carry permit) just in case someone might need to be shot.”
Why you phrase self-defense as “in case someone might need to be shot” is beyond me. It is not illegal to carry a gun for self defense if you are legally allowed to carry a gun, and you keep claiming this is somehow irrelevant because a carry permit is difficult to obtain. IRRELEVANT! You are the one to keep bringing this up, so cut the bullshit!
The subject had several outstanding arrest warrants and had an exacto knife in his sock. At no time is it apparent that he claimed to be carrying it for self-defense. An exacto knife is no more a knife than a guinea pig is a pig, so stop claiming this 21 year old court case set a precedent for the illegality of carrying knives. Why is it relevant that he had it in his sock? Besides the fact that exacto knives aren’t typically carried for self- defense, he never claimed he was carrying it for self-defense, and exacto knives aren’t knives, hiding things that must be carried for manifestly appropriate reasons in your sock may have been used as evidence that one may not be carrying it for appropriate reasons.
Now you’re saying no weapons can be carried for self-defense?
Find me one that says you can carry a Frisbee in your glove compartment.
You enjoy twisting words, don’t you? I said it was less likely to be carried for self-defense.
Look at this section:
“gravity knives, switchblade knives, daggers, dirks, stilettos, or other dangerous knives, billies, blackjacks, bludgeons, metal knuckles, sandclubs, slingshots, cestus or similar leather bands studded with metal filings or razor blades imbedded in wood “
What is a non-dangerous knife? I’m not a lawyer, but I find it curious that it lists “dangerous knives” and not just knives. I have to wonder that maybe that is meant to include other illegal type knives such as gravity knives, switchblade knives, etc. that they may have not listed and does not include knives of a legal type.
[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes: Read the laws. Look up the word exemption. Comprehend. Come back. I’m done.
[QUOTE=Rick]
Thanks buddy.
[/QUOTE]
No problem. When I’m wrong I admit it. I don’t like it but I admit it.
Thank god it doesn’t happen very often 