I am reminded of an instance during my college career.
For a theater class, I was supposed to prepare a 2-minute monologue. I wrote up a funny little bit about my teenage hobby of baiting Street Preachers (Jesus Crispies, as we called them), complete with song and dance. My classmates all seemed highly amused.
But in the evalution of the piece a couple days later, Oliver*, the class know-it-all, told me that my piece was offensive to Christians, and that there was a fundamentalist Christian girl in the class who had really been hurt by my piece, and could I maybe be a little more sensitive next time?
I was appalled; so the next chance I got, I caught up with the Christian woman after class and apologized to her and told her I hadn’t meant to offend her.
Her eyes narrowed and flashed. “You didn’t,” she told me in clipped tones. “I wasn’t offended, and I don’t like street preachers, and I’d thank Oliver not to protect me from thing I don’t need protecting from. I thought your piece was hilarious, and I had no problem with it.”
Thus my usual rule, formed soon after that conversation: I trust people to tell me what offends them or what doesn’t offend them, and then I choose my words based on whether I’m okay with offending them.
Daniel
Names changed to protect my bad memory; quotes also paraphrased for the same reason.
No*, but to REPEATEDLY ignore the explanations by several parties here that “white trash” is NOT used to describe your hypothetical toothless old lady is either dense and obtuse or else stirring shit deliberately. I am beginning to suspect that you have trollish tendencies but hope that you are merely so stuck in your own worldview that you cannot break out of it.
It can be, but usually it is done when the accused actually seems to be acting deliberately stupid. Considering the number of times in this thread that a firm line has been drawn between the Worthy Poor (or, for that matter, the Worth Rich) and White Trash and considering how educated and intelligent you are the fact that you ignore it in order to make your point states in bold face that you are doing it on purpose.
That link was merely and obviously intended to save me the trouble of retyping the argument I made last September.
Well, actually, yes. As I am usually correct any disagreement with me usually points to a flaw in the other person’s reasoning. (no smilie)
Your argument is standalone stupid without any babysitting or attention. Sure, if we ignore the word “white” in “white trash”, then it isn’t about being white at all. Just like if we ignore the word “dumb” in “dumb ass”, then it means that you are an ordinary ass like any other, and not dumb at all.
We’re not supposed to call people trolls. You can bet that my two allies, Veb and Girrafe, will be on it pronto. :rolleyes:
If you are arguing with a man you believe is deliberately stupid, then you are insane.
Oh, you drew a line? Well, why didn’t you say so? If I’d known you drew a line, I would have pissed on myself.
You’re like the man with his eyeballs turned inward, finding flaws in everything. You’re regurgitating the same position you’ve held for a year while accusing others of stubbornly holding onto to their own views. You have the IQ of a Planck length.
I skimmed the last half of page 2, and skipped 3 entirely. Forgive me if any of this is redundant.
Where I come from, “white trash” usually refers specifically to the Urban Appalachian descendents of Depression-era migrants from WV and Eastern Kentucky. You’ll most often hear it on the lips of the middle-class descendents of the German Burgher population. The former suffer from all of the same inequities of endemic poverty and lack of eduction as our African-American population, and even share some of the same ghettoes.
Shit, being where I’m from, I could probably pick out the Appalachian from a lineup of Cincinnat-uh-ans, four times out of five. Five out of five if I get to hear them talk.
I’ve got family in Kentucky, but they’re all very careful to point out that we came here directly from Ireland to West Covington in the early twentieth century, and not from Ulster in early-to-mid 19th. When my Mom heard the word “hillbilly” growing up, she knew exactly what ethnic group the speaker was referring to.
In these parts, it’s not a racist term per se, but it shows a helluva lot of arrogance, ignorance, and bigotry, despite it’s relative propriety in polite company.
I should probably add that while discrimination against Appalachian people in this area is nowhere near as pervasive or oppressive as that against African-Americans, it does indeed exist. This is all anecdotal, but if your last name is at all obvious (Hatfield, anybody?) and your accent at all pronounced, you’re going to have a harder time of it than your average white dude in Cincinnati.
PS: Regarding the particular semantic nitpicking going on in this thread, I agree with Lib. Holy shit.
I didn’t call you a troll. I merely said I thought you might have a tendency in that direction, giving Giraffe and **Veb ** an out (as in, “He didn’t QUITE make an accusation,”) while offering my hope that it wasn’t true and that you were just willfull and maybe a bit dim, giving you an out (as in “It’s true; I’m not as dumb as a rock but I can see why somebody might think I am,”) if you are capable of such introspection.
To further weaken my own point, I’m not saying that when Wilhelm Von Frankfurter refers to Amos McCoy as “white trash,” he’s not necessarily thinking “Urban Appalachian Guy” in the same way he’s thinking “Black Guy” when he calls Tyrone Washington a “nigger.” But hereabouts, poor white people are more likely to be Urban Appalachian than anything else, and it’s more likely that the object of derision is being picked on for Urban Appalachian mannerisms.
The fact that they’re white makes the ethnic bigotry tougher to suss out, and I don’t want to overstate my case. But when you get a culturally distinct group of people living in the same squalid conditions in their well-defined ghettoes, with few signs of improvement for generations, something’s probably going on besides general shiftlessness and laziness.
On the question of whether “white trash” is hate speech, these arguments about etymology, racial sociology, comparison of “white trash” to “nigger”, etc. are irrelevant. Nobody can call another human being “trash” and claim, with a straight face, that it doesn’t convey hatred. This does not strike me as a debatable point.
The owners of the SDMB can arbitrarily ban anything they want. They don’t have to be fair, and they don’t have to use a consistent definition of “hate speech” if they don’t feel like it. This is not debatable. The only point that might be worthy of debate is whether it is in fact fair or consistent to permit “white trash” but prohibit “nigger”, and whether it bothers you enough to make you quit the board. Personally, I think it is unfair to prohibit one but not the other, but the issue does not rise to the level that would make me quit the board. But these are just matters of opinion that are not really debatable anyway.
I’d say that calling someone’s behavior trollish is not the same as calling the poster themselves a troll, and thus not against the rules. However, much like insulting someone’s argument in GD, these statements are often on the borderline of legality. Thus, the onus is on the writer to clearly stay within the rules. Ambiguous statements may still draw a warning.
did to MY point? I mean, it’s like I just dropped my sorry ass in Liberal’s lap! :eek:
Okay, let’s see what we have concluded:
To refer to somebody as “white trash” is intended as an insult, regardless of the presence or absence of racist connotations, and you’d earn yourself a punch in the nose if you did.
The use of “white,” at one time, had racist connotations. To some people, it still does. To others, those connotations have been lost.
Some people still use it to describe poor people who happen to be white, regardless of their quality. Some people limit its use to describing people who are poor AND trashy. Some people have expanded that second usage to include ALL trashy people. Finally, some people don’t use it at all; those people are my social betters.
Because of the differences described in points 2 and 3, we are unlikely to conclude whether or not “white trash” is hate speech, but because there are people here who claim to be offended by it, it is a phrase best avoided, if only to avoid further circular discussions like this one.
**Liberal ** still gets on my last nerve sometimes.
I, on the other hand, use too many commas and smilies.
White trash is a term used to reduce whites who lack the privileges of wealth and education to trash.
Because we hate talking about class in this country, we sometimes pretend that is not what the term is about. But people who do not fall into that demographic can just laugh if called it, because they know it doesn’t really refer to them.
People on this message board, just by the fact that they have the time and ability to participate in an online message board, will almost certainly not fall into that demographic.
Sorry for being away so long folks, I had a slight case of the vapors.
Apparently the point of order has been ruled upon by TVeblen so my response to Giraffe’s hypothetical (what would I do if I were the sole moderator) is now moot.
Holmes, I am truly unclear on what it is you are trying to say about the phrase high yella’. Run it by me one more time if you like and I will try to respond intelligently.
tomndeb, respectfully, I reject your assertion that 20th century usage has robbed the phrase of its offensiveness.
Binarydrome, I have told you three times now why this is a “hot button” issue, in plain and simple terms. Rather than sink to your level and call you stupid, I will assume that you have not bothered to read my replies.
To the rest of you who defend the use white trash, I must admit I am surprised and disappointed. To those who claim that it does not refer to white people, I repeat my rejoinder–bullshit! To those who feel that the demands of communication are such that the term becomes necessary, I suggest a few cozy evenings with a thesaurus.
Thanks for all the responses.
I will continue to consider anyone who uses the term to be a racist for the reasons previously stated (Binarydrome, listen up,)i.e.,
It identifies a group of human beings by color, and disparages them as agroup based upon that definition.
For demographic purposes, and so I can track where it is used that way, where do you live?
You’d be surprised; we have members that fall in that demographic, even if you are not limiting it, as I do, to the people who are pleased to show up on Jerry Springer. And we have a few of them, too, as well as some who belong on Springer but don’t realize it.
Ah, but we LOVE talking about class on this message board!
Yes, but so what? It’s not like they are being discriminated against because of their color. It is merely, as it is used by many, if not most, people, being used as a descriptor.
A person who uses it can be ignorant, though I use it to be insulting, but I challenge the statement that using it makes me racist. Classist, maybe. Ignorant, I can accept. Rude, sure; that’s why one uses insulting terms. But as a white person I cannot see how it can make me a racist.
