These morons are employed to supervise security in the underground and this was way outside the station proper in a public passageway, so I find it it extremely hard that they had anything to say at all at that place. I was also using chalk that, in my experience, disappears in a couple of hours when people walk on it.
And, to begin with, I did give them a reason, That’s what it started with.
Well, sure, just as in the U.S. you have the right to not incriminate yourself and can refuse to answer questions, but from what I can tell in this case – as opposed to the OP – there actually was a crime being committed: damaging the property of the subway. [Maybe not the crime of the century, but almost certainly illegal].
Seems to me that in this case – again unlike the OP – the cops would have been within their rights to arrest the graffiti artist until a good explanation was forthcoming. Maybe not the ideal law enforcement response to such a minor crime, sure, but legally justifiable. And the chalker had some moral – if not legal – responsibility to answer, don’t you think?
Again, the key is that he’s (temporarily) damaging property that’s not his. Standing there holding up a sign with a big arrow on it would be a different case, or getting on the subway without pants or something.
Maybe.
But the explanation was vague and done in a smartass way. And of course if someone ELSE interacted with you in that sorta manner you’d act like someone shoved a cactus up your violated civil liberties ass.
I haven’t yet read the entire thing, but I’m rather amused that a cop was worried about you being out on foot in such weather. 'Round these parts, he’d probably praise you for your prudence in walking instead of taking a car if it’s that bad. But we don’t let snow stop us much, either.
If there is a moral responsbility to own up to violations of the law, then you should keep this in mind the next time you are pulled over for speeding, and be sure to tell the officer exactly how fast you were going when he asks, and explain the reason behind your transgression, no matter how frivolous.
If the cops had cause to arrest the subway graffiti artist, then this was true whether or not he explained himself.
In the United States, it doesn’t matter if you’ve just killed six people with a handgun: you are not required by law to provide the police with anything other than your identity.
As you note, refusal to answer police questions may in fact generate some short-term hassle for yourself, and you may find yourself detained while police sort out exactly what has transpired and who is responsible for any illegal activity, but you can’t be charged with anything for simply refusing to answer miscellaneous police questions.
True, though if you’re caught perpetrating a crime, such as the miniscule crime of defacing public property with chalk, the police can charge you with that. Own up to the crime, promise to stop and be nice to the officer, maybe you get let off with a warning.
That’s the interesting part about a police officer having discretion. If you’re nice, you may get the benefit of it. Treat the officer like a jackbooted thug, give him the legally required minimum of cooperation, you get the legally required minimum of discretion.
I know the thread is old, but I am new and just reading some old law posts.
There is no such thing in this country as taking someone in for questioning or investigative detention absent probable cause. IOW, unless under arrest or you go voluntarily, you are not compelled to “go in for questioning”. They would need to make up a charge, that is, arrest you under a lie.
At one time in the US, yes, it was federally constitutional permissable to do so absent probable cause, (emphasis added for facts), but no longer.
This is quite different from being arrested as a Material Witness if the facts warrant it, which is quite rare.
I live in Ohio also and our S@I law came after Hiibel was handed down, yes.
You simply ask “Am I under investigation”? If the cop is okay, he will say yes or no. If he is crooked, he will say yes anyway even if you are not. Then just comply.
Remaining silent is not even a so called “Adoptive admission” you have knolwedge of the answer or otherwise.
Not even by a long legal stretch could that be considered in Ohio “Obstructing official business”. You have the right to remain silent in the facts presented even if it would not incriminate you.
Unless it was some MAJOR felony that mandated immediate apprehension of the suspect to prevent harm/death to a person, etc., your co-operation to point out which way he went when you knew, is not chargeable, and even still, very questionable if done so.
In any encounter with a police officer, it is wise to remember (unless you have a CCW) that only one of you has a firearm on their person and knows how to use it.
Wanna bet?
Ron White:
*You ever see tape of the Kehoe brothers from Ohio, those two guys that get out of that white Suburban, it’s been on COPS a few times? Those guys, folks, have a shootout with the police, at point…blank…range—nobody gets hurt. I would love to have been at that office the next day when that guy’s being interviewed by the police. “And then what happened?” “Well, at that point, I unloaded my semi-automatic 9 millimeter weapon at point blank range.” “And then what happened?” “They…left.” Nice shooting, Elmer Fudd. There was a kid in Detroit a few years ago, shot 8 bullets, hit 9 people. These cops fired 22 shots, didn’t even hit the fuckin’ Suburban!
*
And why is this important? Does the fact an officer is armed require you to do as they say regardless of legality?
In my business I get in verbal altercations with police on a monthly if not weekly basis. On every occasion I am right; I know the law, my rights and how to do my job (tv news).
Let me be clear - I do not advocate in any way interfering or obstructing the police from doing their job, as a citizen I feel it is my duty to assist law enforcement to the best of my ability (been a witness on many DWI arrests such as this.)
But I feel it is equally important to stand up for yourself when your rights are being trampled. At this very moment I am in the midst of a ‘discussion’ with the DC Chief of Police Cathy Lanier regarding mistreatment by her officers at a crime scene a few weeks ago.
Truly, I understand an officer’s life is hard. One of my college roommates and very close friend is an Alexandria, VA police officer, his wife a former officer. I have the utmost respect for them and 99% of the other hardworking people out there trying to make a difference.
But that 1%? Fuck 'em, I don’t make their lives easy, and I have a nice file of official apologies from various departments to back me up.
Just like I believe it is your duty as a citizen to assist authorities and make the world safer, it is also your duty as a citizen to fight authorities and protect your rights as a citizen.
And you can do it without getting arrested. But you better know what you’re talking about if you want to make a stand. On that point I wholeheartedly agree.
Not at all. Just an acknowledgement of reality.
What does the new bill / law/ edict that the President just signed do to the ‘they can’t do that crowd’???
And say “Sir” or “Ma’am” while you aren’t.
I also strongly agree with what Joey P said.
double post
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Nah, same here, also a Canuck.
I figure there’s two reasons why people feel argumentative with the cops about something like this:
Black guy in lower class Chicago neighbourhood being needled by a white cop? Yeah, I understand the tension there. But otherwise? I’m getting a vibe of 20-30 something white dudes wanting to FIGHT THA MAN.
Yup, I pay my taxes and the cop fights crime and the fireman puts out fires, and the mailman brings the mail, and the garbageman hauls away garbage. Everyone does their job as best they can and the city just hums along. But if the cop gets on a powertrip, or the mailman steals the mail, then we have a problem. That’s when the taxpayer reminds the public servant that he works for the public. A well informed public defending their rights is as important as the the public paying their taxes to keep everyone healthy and happy.
OT: lawbuff, it’s interesting that you bumped this yesterday. I had just searched it earlier that morning.
Ain’t synchronicity grand?