Poll for atheists: how to treat religion

I’ve been discussing this with my girlfriend a lot lately. We’re both in the hard agnostic / soft atheist realm, and thought we find a lot of merit with Dawkins and even Bill Maher’s Religulous, we both consider them to be the worst kind of ambassadors and are doing as much harm as good.

Atheists have an enormous image problem. We’re aware that we are generally the most despised and mistrusted minority. It stands to reason that if an individual is despised and mistrusted, any arguments to further our own belief system (or lack therof) will not only fall on deaf ears, but be perceived as an attack. Nobody likes to be made to be wrong, but the religious have a lot more skin in the game if they are wrong.

For the faithful, religion isn’t just a component of their lives, it is often the foundation of their lives, and attempts to chip away at that foundation can understandably frightens them and endangers everything they’ve built on that foundation. Their “fight or flight” mechanism kicks in, their defenses go up and the more we batter away at their walls, the more they strive to reinforce them.

I think that one of the reasons Christianity was a “hit” is because some of it’s core tenets — “Sermon on the Mount”-type stuff is what people wanted to hear. It went down easy. It wasn’t threatening. On the other hand, atheists’ message — there is no loving God, there is no heaven, there is no ultimate punishment for the wicked is downright terrifying to the religious. And if we do hope a religious person makes a terrifying journey, with someone outwardly compassionate (which a Humanist should be anyway) or someone hostile?

In my fields — graphic design, advertising & marketing — I learned about the “Buy-In Bench,” as a way to sell unconventional ideas to resistant minds. The underlying premise is that depending on how different a new idea is, it can be unrealistic for a person to warm up to that idea in one setting. So you seek to only take them the distance that is realistic and leave the rest for later. Once they’re comfortable with a new position, you can move them further down the bench.

Or maybe more succinctly, if you want a person to dine on your dinner, give them bite-size pieces rather than choking them with all four courses at once.

Personally, I find the arguments against God so compelling that my preferred tact is to — in a mock-naive manner — ask those questions that planted doubt in my mind (I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school and was even an alter boy) and let those same questions roll around in their heads.

I understand the anger and resentment that breeds militancy that we non-believers continue to endure in the face of the religious world. But we are poor ambassadors of our group at our own peril. The whole situation reminds me of an old Onion article “Gay-Pride Parade Sets Mainstream Acceptance Of Gays Back 50 Years” We have a quite a hole from which to emerge, but I do have hope.

Yeah, well, I can’t edit my vote now, even if I wanted to, but if your question was about who us atheists should treat religious people you’ve screwed up the poll completely. The way I chose to interpret it, given the leading* way it was stated, was:

How to treat religion:

With the tolerance and respect due to all religious ideas.
With the scorn and derision all superstitions deserve.

  • I took your stating of the answers as deliberate: option a is the one to choose if you respect people, while option b is the one to choose if you’re a cold-hearted rationalist.

If it helps, just read the transcript in the OP. The debate reported upon is only presented with 2 sides, which I tried to represent with 2 choices of buttons.

Keep in mind that Dawkins and Hitchens (originally) are British. In the UK, as in many countries in Europe, being an atheist is nothing remarkable, and outspoken fundamentalist Christianity is pretty uncommon. I think partly because of that, neither is very concerned with offending what they probably view as the lunatic fringe, and both are quite willing to debate people with opposing view points.

I’d read it already before I saw this poll. I think it’s a made-up-to-look-new controversy. It’s not particularly interesting.

There’s always been discussion amongst people (not all of which are atheists at all - the religious themselves tend to butt in) about how much respect non-religious people should give religions. As far as I’m concerned, not much. Certainly not more than I would give a political party that I don’t care for, and there are a few despicable parties in my country. That doesn’t mean that I can’t respect or even understand people who may have very different political ideals. But not always, there are limits. In any case, I agree completely with Dawkins that religions are awarded a completely undeserved amount of leeway and respect, not just in the US, but also in my country. I also know atheists and agnostics that don’t agree. I can live with that.

None of this has anything to do with how religious people should be treated, as long as their believes don’t negatively affect others. But it also doesn’t mean that religious believes cannot be challenged. I get challenged on my political, views, and I challenge my friends and acquaintances on theirs, if I don’t agree with them, when it’s opportune. Why should religion be off-bounds?

I agree with your assessment of the religious makeup of Europe vs. America, but neither Dawkins or Hitchens is ignorant (1) that their audience extends into America, and (2) the percentage of America’s population that self-identify as religious. Also, one needn’t be on the lunatic fringe for religion to play a central role in their life. For instance, my girlfriend’s father is a very liberal pastor, but holds his faith as crucially important to his life.

But I also agree with your assertion that neither of them are particularly concerned with offending believers, and that’s simply where I take umbrage with their approach.

I think Hitchens is a douche in general, but love Dawkins, and one of the things I like most about him is that he’s honest about what he thinks and does not fear offending people.

Just because your religion is sacred to you, does not mean it have to be sacred to everyone else. We feel pretty free to make fun of Scientologists, LDS and other relatively uncommon religions - just because Christians are such a politically important majority here in the States should not give them a special status, or infringe on people’s right to free speech, active disbelief and anti-Christian/religious feelings.

I agree that the majority doesn’t merit special privileges, but you have to ask yourself what is your ultimate goal? To merely mock and agitate the ignorant? Or earn respect in the eyes of this country for your fellow atheists? Because the pyrrhic gratification granted by the former will retard the capacity of doing the latter.

I treat any kind of belief with the same respect.

That is- if you want to believe Jesus saved you from alcoholism, then that’s great. If you want to believe that fairies helped you to get pregnant, also great.

The one thing I will point out (and am seriously baffled at the number of people who hear this and then look at me like it’s something they’ve never considered before and I’ve rocked their world) is that science and God are not mutually exclusive and that it makes perfect sense that a truly powerful and wise God could orchestrate something as elegant as evolution. But I only really get into it if someone asks me first.

For the most part, though- if you can be respectful, I can be. When it starts hurting someone else, I stop being so respectful. If you want to tell me you’ll pray for me or do a spell for me or call on the creatures of the world to help me out, then I’ll smile and say thank you (except when it’s in a nasty “I’ll pray for the salvation of your soul” way). If you want to tell me about how happy you are that you’ve found Jesus, I’ll be happy for you. I’ll even pray for you if you ask me to. I don’t respect anyone’s right to be awful and nasty and I don’t respect anyone’s right to try to remove other people’s rights or make political decisions based on their religions.

Religion itself, the belief system, gets treated with the maximum amount of scorn and derision I can muster, I do not suffer illogical “belief systems” lightly

the Religious, as long as they’re not actively trying to shove their superstitious codswallop down my throad, are simply ignored, they don’t even register on my radar, unless you’re in my face about it, I’m a “live and let live” kinda’ guy, believe whateverthefrell you want, just don’t force your superstitious nonsense on me, leave me alone, and I’ll leave you alone, sound good?

This, pretty much. Keep it to yourself and I couldn’t care less. Try and convert and prepare to defend.

I find the options rather useless - but voted scorn - as I will never start talking about religion, I could know someone for years without knowing whether they are religious or not. For example I just found out a couple of years ago (I’m 27) that all three of my remaining grandparents essentialy believe in god…before I just didn’t know and maybe assumed they were atheist because my parents are.

To cut to the chase, if religion becomes an issue for discussion it is because of a religious person bringing it up. When this happens, scorn is what they’ll get :slight_smile:

I’m happy with the options and can easily pick “With the scorn and derision all superstitions deserve”. But, folks, read it - you get to scorn and deride the belief, you don’t have to treat the people who hold it with scorn and derision.

If somebody vigorously tries to convince me that astrology or tarot or protestantism or water witching really work, a heated debate including a dismantling of the supporting arguments would be fine. But if, as usually happens, the subject never even comes up, or if it might be deduced (because I see somebody coming out of a church or a fortune telling shop) but the person doesn’t pursue the matter, it is appropriate to be polite and enjoy whatever interactions do come up.

Religion should be treated with the same kind of tolerance and respect we use for any other group of people who become angry and vindictive when they don’t get their way. If believers in astrology had a strong history of violently punishing any who disagreed with them I would be more inclined to show them respect and tolerance.

Ooooo… better… if I weren’t spineless, I’d have said this.

What, no “round them up and have them all shot” option?

My favorite quote about this subject:

I’ll treat religious friends with respect, even if I think their religion (the term in the thread title) deserves scorn.

Then my vote needs to be changed from a 2) to a 1)

I chose #2 naturally. But for me, the two are essentially identical. People and beliefs do not all deserve equal respect; and I’m not going to show any towards beliefs I consider both stupid and destructive.

As for tolerance; tolerance means that I don’t try to burn churches down, shoot believers, or have their beliefs censored or outlawed. It means I don’t do things like fire them just for being believers. It doesn’t mean I need to pretend to respect their beliefs, or to pretend that I regard them as anything other than foolish.