Poll on College Library Usage

In My Humble Opinion
21

Hell, I’m a public librarian and you must have a library card to use the computers (except the catalog only ones). She probably didn’t realize that the databases are the real value on your PACs. :slight_smile: If you’re out of county, you pay to get a library card at the public library. Why? 'Cause you didn’t pay for our stuff with your property taxes!

Now, if you are a land grant university you do have more of a mandate to serve the public. And if you are a government repository then you have certain rules to follow about public access. The computer lab to type your papers, on the other hand - very different story.

22

That’s not true with every public library though–our computers are open to everyone.

23

It’s interesting that college libraries are no longer a repository of information and ideas but a private store for profit.

If I want to read Winnie the Pooh I go to my local public library. If I need to research any kind of serious material of an academic nature I need to go to a college or university. I’m not there to cruise for porn or read Straight Dope. I can do that at home.

University of Delaware are some of the stingiest bastards on earth. They’ve already gotten piles of money out of me and now they get my taxes. You can’t look at this, can’t print that, don’t go upstairs.

I am loud and politically connected and they give me what I want now. Contrary to what they wanted me to believe, it doesn’t seem to be any problem.

At the other end of the library rainbow is a small private college near me who were absolutely solicitous when I asked if I could check out materials. While the librarian was getting me a card the head guy came out and expressed that he wished all of the community would take advantage of their resources. They let me print, use the internet, check out unlimited stuff for as long as I like. They get me stuff through inter-library loan (sometimes from the University of Delaware) and help me find things. This same college has on numerous occasions made professors available to me and once let me use an empty classroom because I needed a large blackboard. Anything to help some one endeavoring to learn.

They get it.

24

[QUOTE=Hello Again]
University library exists for the benefit of the university not all the general public. Libraries for the general public are called… public libraries.

If the online program does not offer an option to get computer lab access (for a fee), then they are silly, but that’s something to take up with the Online programs office, not the library.

(note: MANY public universities receive only fractional support from the state – when I was at William & Mary, the state only provided something like 15% of funding, and there was constant talk of going private, culminating in the Restructuring Act.
(http://www.virginia.edu/restructuring/)
[/QUOTE]

My comments below are mainly in regard to UCLA, though they are probably applicable to any large urban university.

UCLA allows the general public to search the catalog, which is browser based. They can do this from offsite as well. Anyone can also pay a small annual fee to be a Friend Of The Library, and thus receive borrowing privileges. Alumni Association members (at least Life and higher members) also enjoy this privilege. On the other hand, certain online-only content is available only to students pursuing degrees (IOW, extension Students excluded), and access to the campus wi-fi network is not available to outsiders. I’m one of those people attending an online program elsewhere, but I live near UCLA, and I do go there sometimes. My school is in Fullerton. I can’t go all the way to Fullerton to use the library. If I didn’t have my alumni association membership at UCLA, I’d be S.O.L.

This thread raises some interesting points for discussion, in terms of academic relations, of personal safety, and of the impacts of large universities on the local neighborhoods. First, I have to say I was dismayed to learn that there is, essentially, zero cooperation and reciprocity between CSU and UC. Yes, I know that UC is the better system by most measures, but wouldn’t you think that the students of each system would have some privileges at the other? Like library privileges, and BYO-notebook wi-fi privileges? As a CSU student, I would love to see this happen, but I know that the desire for it is essentially one-sided, since UC has no online programs that I’m aware of, and does not otherwise cater to adult students nearly as much as CSU does. So UC has little incentive to make things easier for CSU students.

The safety issue comes from the fact that non-students, including Extension students, aren’t allowed to sign up for the cellular emergency alert system. There are any number of reasons that non-students could have legitimate business on campus, such as availing themselves of their library privileges, if applicable, or taking extension classes, and so on. Yet, if some crazed gunman were to go on the attack, they cannot be notified. Is this not a dereliction of a basic duty to the public? Ironically, I was automatically enrolled in the CSUF safety alert system. I was sitting at home in West L.A. studying, and I got an automated call from the CSUF Police Department, telling me that a safety drill was in progress and I should stay where I was until further notice. Hmmm…I’l just stay right here on my couch then, shall I? Ooooookay.

Lastly, physically large institutions like universities in large cities have huge environmental impacts in terms of traffic. Just because they are there, it can be that much harder for a non-affiliated local to go to the “proper public facility”, assuming that it even exists. The proximity of the university’s library, coffeeshop, bookstore, and other facilities can discourage local merchants from providing equivalent services for the public, for fear of not being able to compete for the students’ business. Also, public libraries are not equivalent to academic libraries. Should non-students really have no access at all to a local university library? For a publicly funded university I wouldn’t think a little accommodation for the public is too much to ask, or at least some academic reciprocation.

I’m reminded of the recent thread where the OP complained that he couldn’t use the airport wi-fi. I think it’s outrageous that he can be there, waiting for a bus–legitimately–and not be able to use the network. Like a university, an airport affects the lives of everyone around it, and it doesn’t seem out of line to expect some accommodation, especially when one has a legitimate reason to be there.

25

Wow. If your thing is to do your work on the cheap, you might want to learn how to use Notepad or something.

I’m with the OP here. Those particular computers are for searching the catalog. When I was in grad school occasionally I’d be in the stacks and need to find a new book, and some loser would be at the terminal checking their e-mail. Annoying!

The shared use principle sounds all well and good, but the minute a student is displaced by a non-student on the computer, all hell will break loose. I like the idea of giving access to students at neighboring campuses (you just need your ID to sign in). However, I do think that a student has a reasonable expectation that the resources they are paying for with their tuition are being used by others making the same expenditure.

I think unis should allow as much free access to taxpaying citizens as possible (museums, sporting events) but at some level the students, faculty, and staff should be able to access the resources they need to do their jobs with as little interference as possible.

26

[QUOTE=myskepticsight]
Should all public universities let the non-tuition/fee paying public full access to their resources? Even when said university is located in a major metropolitan area with many public libraries? When I mean “full access” I mean either: letting public patrons check out materials and/or letting the public login to computer lab computers with all the programs and printing access (which here would require a reworking of the login process or a way for nonstudents to pay for printing).
[/QUOTE]

To follow up my last comment, I think generally the public should be accommodated, but only to the extent that such accommodation doesn’t hinder the students and faculty. I also believe that it’s more than reasonable for the public to be assessed some sort of usage fee to cover library and computer expenses. It’s the old principle of favored and disfavored users; the former rightly get preferential treatment, but the latter are still allowed some access.

As for your library being in a major metro area, see my comment above about traffic and environmental impact. And in no way, shape, or form can a typical public library branch be equated with an academic collection. Where I am, in West L.A., I can assert that none of the local LAPL branches have much to offer. I can’t confirm that the proximity of the largest academic library on the West Coast has anything to do with that fact, it still seems plausible.

As for it being the “age of technology”, in one sense the woman had a point. Internet access is a big part of studying these days; not just if someone is in an online course, but also because it has become a standard feature of academic work. People don’t go to physical encyclopedias and reference books anymore, they do things online from their computers. While I don’t think the university should provide computers for every Tom, Dick, and Harry to use, some fee-based accommodation for those who bring their own notebooks might not be unreasonable.

27

Currently I work in a private college where the usage policy is “Students only. Period. Not up for debate.” Non-students can’t even get into the library as it requires an electronic ID badge.

When I worked at the U. of Alabama it was in addition to being a public university it’s also a Government Document depository, which by federal law MUST be open to the public. The main problem with community users was that they weren’t allowed to check out books unless they purchased a community borrower card (can’t remember how much but fairly high- about $50- I told several that if they didn’t have to have the book that day their best bet was to borrow it through ILL through the public library for free), and a couple of jackasses did pull the “I pay your salary” thing with me and other employees (seemingly oblivious to the fact that by that logic we pay our own salary as well so thus we cancel each other out).

In any case, public universities are able to stay open due to state and federal government funds, private donations, and most of all tuition, thus there is absolutely nothing even slightly illegal or unethical about students and faculty having the “right of first night” all around. Since public libraries exist and in most states there are also virtual libraries accessible from any internet connection I think it’s more than fair that you can’t check out books from a public university library. I never distinguished between community users and students in giving reference assistance- if you have a reference question then that’s what I do and I’ll be glad to help (though if you’re community and have a complicated question I will leave you to help a student, but I’ll be back), but in the event of a conflict community is “guest” while student/faculty are “at home”.

28

[QUOTE=Sampiro]

In any case, public universities are able to stay open due to state and federal government funds, private donations, and most of all tuition, thus there is absolutely nothing even slightly illegal or unethical about students and faculty having the “right of first night” all around. Since public libraries exist and in most states there are also virtual libraries accessible from any internet connection I think it’s more than fair that you can’t check out books from a public university library. I never distinguished between community users and students in giving reference assistance- if you have a reference question then that’s what I do and I’ll be glad to help (though if you’re community and have a complicated question I will leave you to help a student, but I’ll be back), but in the event of a conflict community is “guest” while student/faculty are “at home”.
[/QUOTE]

I got my MLS at UCLA quite some time ago, although I don’t practice in the field and haven’t for many years. I have to admit that I’m having some problems getting my head around what librarians in this thread are saying. I don’t remember such absolute exclusivity as being consistent with the ethics of the profession. Sure, you do have to give preference to the students. But absolutely exclude others? It’s a little bit too much in my opinion, if outsiders are not allowed any sort of recourse. If such recourse is fee based I don’t have an issue with it. If such access is only a subset of what the students get, I’m fine with that too. Where I have a problem though is the idea that if Joe Blow, a non-student, seeks to use a local university library, the library’s only response should be “Get thee to a public library.”

29

Her particular complaint was just about the terminals not having Microsoft Office. Since my floor is mostly neglected by students (due to database access from any computer on campus or off campus with your login, and no one really giving a shit about journals anyway, everyone just studies on my floor), we never have our 5 terminals full. And the browser will go to any site AFAIK. So she could research all she wanted, but she wanted to sit and write her papers. She never mentioned anything but the lack of Word. We only kick people off if we catch them looking at porn (and everyone that I know of that has been caught - not students, same for the people that cause the most trouble - not students, like the guy who threw a stapler at a worker because she couldn’t find the right back issue of Chicago Tribune) so she could have sat there and researched all she wanted. No other non-student trying to find articles has complained before - they just email articles to themselves. They are still getting that for free (I’ve seen how much journals + database access costs us - it’s freaking expensive!).

The library allows the public access to everything else besides the computer lab as far as I know. Non students come in all the time for microforms and government docs, look at the special collections and museum downstairs. I just don’t think they are allowed to remove anything from the library except any copies they pay for (and students pay for copies the same way - cash). Probably half of the people I help with microfilm are not students, and we give them the same help as anyone else because those materials are open to the public. A lot of people asking for journal help aren’t students either.

When I was leaving work the lady was down at the circulation desk, telling the student workers there the exact same thing - “it’s an age of technology.” Okay…? That was her argument. That since technology is a big part of life, apparently we need to provide it to everyone?

If we disallowed the public access to the materials (like not allowing the public in at all) I would not think she was in the wrong. She just wanted access to the computer lab which us students pay extra for, a special ‘technology’ fee. And I think it’s a few hundred bucks either a semester or per year, don’t remember. St. Louis has a large public library system and cards are not hard to get. There are 17 STL public libraries and like 20 STL County public libraries. There is actually a STL County library on the same road as the college. I told her this and she rolled her eyes at me! We allow her everything but full Word/printing access - she can read every book, look at every microfilm, every govt doc, every journal AND the databases.

Yeah it sucks to have to go to online school or whatever, but that school is not affiliated with us, you don’t pay the extra fees, the computer labs aren’t sufficient enough for the students that do pay as it is, why do you expect to use them? I think allowing the public to do everything but use Word/print is quite a bit. I am sorry if you can’t afford your own computer or whatever too, it does suck. But there are other options for you - the 37 public libraries in this town. Maybe if the school felt like buying a couple hundred more computers and a building to house them in, we could let the public use them. But I am not exaggerating when I say the 3 computers labs I know of on campus are always full when classes are in session. There is usually a line. We don’t have enough.

30

[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus]
I have to admit that I’m having some problems getting my head around what librarians in this thread are saying. I don’t remember such absolute exclusivity as being consistent with the ethics of the profession. Sure, you do have to give preference to the students. But absolutely exclude others? It’s a little bit too much in my opinion, if outsiders are not allowed any sort of recourse.
[/QUOTE]

I’m not really sure where you get that, since I specifically and explicitly stated (in the part you posted)

meaning I don’t exclude, absolutely or otherwise, students v. non-students when it comes to assisting them use the collection. As for allowing checkouts, well, it’s beyond my control, though it is a policy I agree with.

31

The thing about “get thee to the public library ILL desk” when it comes to circulating your collection - if you’re a student, you’re accountable. You don’t graduate until you bring it back. If you’re ILLing from the public library, you’re accountable - we send the collection agency after you, and we are SERIOUS about it for ILL. We couldn’t borrow from the Library of Congress for a while because we’d sent back a book and they misshelved it and called it lost!

But you can ILL here from the State Library or the University of South Carolina for free. Nothing. Nada. No postage fees, no nothing. In other words, it actually does cost money for us to get it for you, but we eat that. What more do you want? The University library is open to the public (has to be, it’s a government repository though not a land grant school), the public can look at anything, use most of the computers (although I think not the ones that have Word on them and scanners and such - technology fee, again), request things from the annex, use the bazillion dollar databases - they just can’t check stuff out without being a Friend of the Library, and they can’t use those computers, and they won’t give them the wireless key. What kind of greedy guts are you?

You can get the books circulated to you at the public library for free, free as in beer! You can walk yourself down to the Caroliniana Library and look at all the university’s special collections. You can spend all the time you want to reading serials that cost the university (paid for mostly with tuition these days, not as much tax dollars as it used to be) literally millions of dollars and you’re bitching because you can’t use Microsoft Word? Geez, the entitlement!

Of course, I did just have a patron ask me for a mouse for his laptop, and get all miffed when I said we didn’t have any. People think we owe them the world because we’re a public institution.

ETA - if I wasn’t clear, I work at the public library, where we do free ILL from the University. I used to work at the University, where we gave it all away for free and still had people yelling at us because we didn’t give them the shirts off our backs.

32

[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus]
My comments below are mainly in regard to UCLA, though they are probably applicable to any large urban university.

.
[/QUOTE]

FTR, on checking UCs collective revenue breakdown here, UC general funds together with California state general funds still far outstrip the contribution of student fees.

33

[QUOTE=Sampiro]
I’m not really sure where you get that, since I specifically and explicitly stated (in the part you posted) meaning I don’t exclude, absolutely or otherwise, students v. non-students when it comes to assisting them use the collection. As for allowing checkouts, well, it’s beyond my control, though it is a policy I agree with.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t mean what you specifically said here, but what I see as the general tone of opinion here, in this thread. Back in the day libraries were more or less assumed to be open, at least physically, and generally allow some kind of access to anyone who had a good research related reason to be there. USC is a private institution, like the one where you work now, but some years ago I went to its music library to run off some guitar music on the photocopier, and it never occurred to me that I might not be allowed to go in there and do that. I wouldn’t have expected to be able to charge out the music, but I was able to enter the building, find my music, and get my copies. Nobody asked who I was or told me to leave.

The outstanding exception among well known libraries was and is the Huntington here in SoCal, but the extreme hoops and qualifications one has to jump through to enter its select circle of “readers” results mainly from the rarity and physically delicate nature of the items in the collection.

Jebus, if things keep evolving the way they are, there will end up being a system of “library recommends”, where a person’s local public librarian giives the patron a local university library pass, after verifying the person’s character and objectives. Kind of like what the local LDS stake does when they give the member a ‘recommend’ to the temple.

34

[QUOTE=Zsofia]

But you can ILL here from the State Library or the University of South Carolina for free. Nothing. Nada. No postage fees, no nothing. .
[/QUOTE]

I don’t know if LAPL has anything like this with UCLA, but if they do I’m so there.

35

That’s what public libraries are for, not libraries at public universities.

36

[QUOTE=Mongo Ponton]
It’s interesting that college libraries are no longer a repository of information and ideas but a private store for profit.

If I want to read Winnie the Pooh I go to my local public library. If I need to research any kind of serious material of an academic nature I need to go to a college or university. I’m not there to cruise for porn or read Straight Dope. I can do that at home.

.
[/QUOTE]

One of the things I was trying to say. Thank god for connected politicians in small states, that agree with me :slight_smile:

I think the case that the pubic mission of universities, public and private, is changing, and not for the better. Maybe the real reason is budgeting problems that didn’t exist in the 1970s and 1980s, and if so, it’s something that needs to be looked at. And it isn’t something that the universities alone should be expected to solve alone, but one that needs cooperation among everyone involved.

It used to seem there was a tacit assumption that the knowledge–as in the books–was there for anyone, at least to use onsite, even though the actual teaching, evaluation, academic credits, and degrees were not. Maybe restrictive policies bother me because I’m not “just a bum from the public”, but have spent eight years of my life in higher education. As a result, I know my way around academic libraries and I’m very comfortable there. The idea of not being allowed to use one is very disheartening, and I know if I ever move to another part of the country, my UCLA Alumni Life Membership card will be valueless in attempting to access or charge out materials at the local university wherever I move to.

As for Internet access on a BYO-notebook basis, I’ve been considering that, since this thread started, and I’m not sure where I come down on this. Although I definitely believe that public unis in the same state should reciprocate with one another, I’m less convinced that the uni should provide wi-fi access to anyone who brings in their notebook and wireless card. I’ve complained not being able to get online at UCLA elsewhere on the board, but in the end I just bought my own wireless access, so in a way I tacitly agree with their current policy.

37

Let me be clear, in regards to my earlier post, that I think, in general, the libraries of public universities should be open to the public. They should be able to look at, read, and photocopy (at their own expense) all they like, as long as it does not interfere with the student/faculty needs.

I have reservations about “the public” checking out books from an academic library. Note that in New York City, the major research libraries of the New York Public Library system are also non-circulating.

And the expectation that the library provide word processing to non-students, at no charge, is beyond the pale.

38

[QUOTE=dalej42]
I just wish I could check out materials from a college library in the local community. I’d certainly be willing to pay for the privilege. At the very least, why shouldn’t university libraries have interlibrary loan with their city’s library system?
[/QUOTE]

I think the reason we don’t see that more often is that the benefits tend to be one-sided. What would the university community want from a public library? Which is just another way of highlighting the fact that they generally have the best library in the community, so they don’t want or need to reciprocate with the PLs. UC doesn’t need to reciprocate with CSU, with regard to online study programs, because they have few or none, while CSU has many.

Doesn’t the local college library at least have a friends or associates program you can join? I did that one year at UCLA, before I joined the Alumni Association, and it cost $35 a year, or something like that. It was a long time ago, though.

39

I went to a conference at Vanderbilt University once and while there decided to see their library. It was the first place I ever encountered the “no admission without tuition” policy- you had to beep yourself in with a student ID. We were able to get a private tour later but only by prior arrangement. I’ve wondered how they get around this since they participate in the Federal Depository Library Program. (GovDocs are odd critters; you can purchase government documents without being part of the FDLP, but if you are in the FDL Program then you have to make them [the government documents- though that part only] accessible to community users, which (along with the fact that most new/current docs are available on the Internet and the fact that they are a pain-in-the-arse if you’re not a large library with ample informed staff to decode them) is why a lot of libraries have elected to withdraw from the program.*

*For the non-librarian: Government Documents (govdocs) are documents published and distributed by the Government Printing Office [GPO] and other private contractors of the Federal Government. GovDocs range from 100+ volume hard-copy Census information to tiny 2 x 3 inch folded pamphlets on “Chester Alan Arthur’s Mother-in-Law’s Half-Brother’s Almost Birthplace Historic Site” to everything in between, but the bread and butter being the Congressional Record and Legislative documents. Most of the new info is placed on the web, which is used as an excuse by Congress to routinely slash the GPO’s budget and by libraries to get rid of the hard copy version (shelf-space being an issue at most libraries).

GovDocs are extremely rich in terms of content, especially for university students. Most people have no idea how detailed the Census alone is, for example; the Census won’t just tell you how many people live in Des Moines but how many gas pumps/Asians over 80/diabetics/millionaires/lesbian couples/acres planted in barley/people employed in fishing/granite quarries/persons employed online/grandparents raising their grandchildren/etc. etc.ad nauseum are in the greater Des Moines area. The problem is that Stevie Wonder could solve a Rubik’s Cube in half the time it takes most people to find this information and not because they’re stupid but because the information is housed on some of the least user-friendly web sites ever created. They’re also jargon loaded- the developers seem to presume all people just automatically know what a Uniform Crime Report or Yearbook of Minerals or Census of Agriculture is and how it’s arranged.
Then there’s the matter of what’s called the “Legacy Collection”, which is the mountains of things published from 1787 to the present and some of it incredibly useful but which has never been reproduced digitally and likely never will be by the Federal Government (though Lexis-Nexis and Readex and other private companies have reproduced it and sell access for a very sweet profit [which I don’t begrudge them, but it’s aggravating that this is stuff the GPO should be doing but never will]). Statistical Abstracts, which is basically a year by year “what was the average income/price for a pound of pork/number of highway miles/price of mid grade cotton” etc. from the 1870s to present, is about as close as it come.
For this reason most of the “legacy collection” (the stuff published before the Internet that will likely never be digitized by the GPO) is housed hard copy at libraries throughout the country (very simplified version) and there are librarians who specialize in Government Documents. (I used to be one- the first year was a nightmare since I walked in a virgin to the subject and was GovDocs librarian at one of the oldest and largest govdocs depositories in the nation- literally about 5 miles of shelved material.) The depositories house public information and as such THAT PART OF THE COLLECTION must be available to the public. It’s rare you get a community user, but when you do it was often as not (at least in my case) one of those “cancel all appointments for the next day” things because it would be a bear to find what they were looking for in boxes in the basements. One time it was a Federal report on graphite deposits in a particular county in Alabama made during World War II for atomic bomb experimentation purposes, declassified in 1980s, and on which a $10 million development deal for that county hinged; it took weeks to find the materials because in the past 20+ years since declassification it had been moved and reshelved and put into storage and never cataloged and rearranged ten times; it was covered with decades old mouse droppings, but legible.)

40

I do think there’s a change in the wind regarding academic libraries, and one that is unfortunate for the public. We all agree that the library is there for the students. The student is User Number One. But actually barring physical access to others, even at a private uni, as at Vanderbilt and some other private unis just seems unlibrary-like. (As an aside, it’s sad to see that there is so little cohesion and reciprocation just in the library profession that a visiting librarian wouldn’t be accorded professional courtesy.) PUblic uni libraries may be somewhat more beholden to their communities, but the way things seem to be gradually heading, I wouldn’t be surprised if many of them shut their doors to the public as well.

Although the primary customer of the university has always been the student, in the past this principle was evident elsewhere in the university enterprise. The dorms were private. The classrooms were restricted. And nobody ever expected to just walk in off the street, and get a math professor to help you with a thorny PDE. But the library, traditionally, was usually available. Restricting all access to visitors would have been unthinkable.

Keep in mind, I’m referring here uni libraries that totally exclude the public, and not the ones that do let them in but don’t extend all the same access or privileges.

It’s been too many years since I was in library school, but IIRC at the time (early 1980s), an academic library was not considered a private library in the terminology of the field, at least not in the same way as a private corporation or law firm’s library would be. A university, even a private one, was never meant to be like a private club, not least because they often have deep roots in the communities in which they are located. Los Angeles was a small town when USC was founded, and the city and university have grown up together. The paying students got their money’s worth through the actual teaching and studying that took place, and through preferential treatment by the library, but not by the simple strategem of keeping everyone else out.