Polycarp did you forget to take you pills?

Jayjay:

Oh, Jayjay, Jayjay, let he who sees the flaws in my reasoning cast the first stone. Also let he, who does not want to be the subject of my hostility stop making senseless statements only to later try and weasel out of them and ignore meaningful criticism. And finally let he who wishes to make an argument decide for himself what is important rather than running it by you first. You sad, sad shadow of a man who thinks that no lunacy is to great for people to hold dear, regardless the cost, so much as it does not affect you and your selfish ways personally.

Or better said, this is the Pit and it’s my thread so how about you just eat shit if you don’t like it.

I must have missed the Pit Rule that said that OPs are inviolable within the threads they start. My mistake.

Homebrew:

On my mom’s side yes. Dad’s side no.

I myself was never so much hostile towards the fundamentalist take on things, rather things that just don’t make any sense, which affects fundamentalist and liberal Christianity pretty much equally.

I’m happy now, thank you very much.

Tomndebb gently chided me for “pulling a Phaedrus” for the length of time it’s taken me to produce this. While I regret “playing the tease,” I really don’t feel an apology is necessary. This is important to me, and I needed the time to write precisely what I mean.

This is the account of a young man whom I believe is destined to play a transforming role in the future of this country. But to tell his story, I need to start with a historical context, and then tell the early life of his companion. It’s a shocking story, but necessary to give the background.

Historical Parallels:

  1. 3,500 years ago, the King of Egypt had a firstborn son. The boy suffered from a debilitating genetic defect, but was bright and observant. And he saw his father giving deference and enormous gifts to the priesthoods of the gods, and particularly of Amon. But the gods would not cure him of his ailment. As he grew and studied, he realized that the Sun is the source of light and heat, that it causes plants to grow, which in turn feed animals and men, that it draws up water to cause clouds and rain, etc. In a quantum leap, he concluded that the gods of Egypt were superstitions, and that there was but one god, who was symbolized most properly by the Sun. Using the minor deity Aten, equivalent to the Sun’s disc, he encouraged worship of the Aten, and when he succeeded his father, proclaimed the Aten as the one true god. The Aten was not a god of strict rules, but a life-giving force in whom one should rejoice. His wife and younger brother backed him in this, and he instituted a reform. But, focused on changing Egypt’s religious life, he ignored trouble in the outlying provinces, which ended up in nomads invading them. And he discounted the degree to which orthodox religion works on people’s fears, especially their fear of the unknown. And after his death, his reform was reversed by a child king controlled by the Grand Vizier and the surviving priests of Amon.

  2. 2,600 years ago, in India, the Sakyamuni family, princes over a small state, had a son. He was raised in the orthodox virtues, but kept innocent of the problems of life: poverty, chronic illness, the debilitating effects of old age. Then, one day, he saw a beggar, a cripple, and a feeble old person, and had compassion on them. And the knowledge that human beings like himself were subject to these problems transformed him internally. And he renounced his royal state, and pursued the seeking of wisdom, on how one might overcome these problems. Eventually, again, he had a transforming insight: not the problems themselves, but their effect on the human spirit, is what defeats a person. If one can achieve a state of mind where what happens to one does not matter, one can be victorious over whatever besets one.

  3. Eighty years ago, a well-to-do young man went for a swim at his family’s island home on the Canadian border. His family history is of interest: his distant cousin, who had recently died, had overcome his own childhood illnesses through physical fitness and rough living, and gone on to become President. And when he married, it was to the President’s niece, in the White House. All three shared the same name. His own father now deceased, had left a monumental estate to his mother and him. But that swim in chilly waters left him vulnerable to the attack of the poliomyelitis virus, and he never walked without external support again. But in recuperating from the polio attack, he ended up in places where he saw other polio victims, poor and without resources. Meanwhile, his wife had taken seriously what her social set saw as noblesse oblige – providing help to those less fortunate. And she made it her life’s goal to combat poverty and all manner of social stigmata. But his sharing in suffering and overcoming it, with therapy, brought him to the conclusion that anything can be overcome, if one has but the will and someone provides the resources. And from that he forged a future where he told a nation who had lost hope that the only thing they had to fear was fear itself – that together they could combat and overcome the blind economic forces that were defeating them individually. And, by trial and error, he made it work. And he went on to lead that people to defeat the forces of totalitarian, imperialist hatred in the name of freedom and democracy, announcing that all men have the right to freedom of speech, freedom to worship, freedom from want, and freedom from fear. And, just as that war was ending, he died.

Each man was transformed by the interplay of external circumstances impacting him with his own sense of what is right and of compassion. Each made an impact that changed some part of the world. And each fell short: Akhnaten’s memory was nearly forgotten until archaeologists discovered his city at Amarna; the teachings of Gautama were transformed into a salvationist system where devotion to Amida brings one to a “pure Western land” that is more or less heaven with an Asian accent; and FDR’s goals led to the excesses of the Great Society, the Vietnam War, and the reaction of the Reagan Revolution.

But their dreams, their ideals live on.

======

*In my home town 125 years ago, a young clerk at Moore’s Store named Frank Woolworth hit on the bright idea of marking down stock that had not moved to a set fixed price of five cents, with a counter where all merchandise was at that price. Watertowners being cheap, the idea caught on. And Mr. Woolworth ended up with an enormous chain of stores. (His heirs ignored the business, living off their inheritance, and the businessmen whom they hired to run it ended up bankrupting it.)

But the idea was duplicated across America. The Kresges, the McCrorys, the Greens, and many another family started discount department store chains from single stores, some successful, some not. One of these men, very successful and rich beyond the dreams of avarice, had a son who succeeded him as CEO and who built the business even larger. The son, in turn had two boys. The older was the egotistical child of privilege, sent to military school in his teens. The younger, sent to a private school, is the person whom I believe is the subject of our story. Let’s call him “Adam” for purposes of this account, playing off the fact that his companion is named Steve.

I am specifically not naming names – you can draw your own conclusions, as I did. In this account I am omitting locational information and his name, for two reasons: (1) While I know the first name, the idea that he is the scion of that family is my conclusion from remarks about the family lifestyle and where they’re located that make the conclusion of who he is logical. But I do not have proof. (2) Whether or not this is the case, the private information from the website could be grounds for a lawsuit from people who have enormous resources – either breach of privacy or slander. And a third reason: (3) I believe that he deserves the right to decide when he will act publicly, and what I’m doing is merely sharing my conclusions about him and his probable future.

======

Steve’s story: In Louisiana in the 1980s, a couple had a son. I have only the boy’s recollections to go by here, but by the time he was born, the man was a habitual drunk with a severe streak of violence; the woman was a working mother who supported them.

In addition to physical abuse, the man was a sexual predator, who ended up molesting Steve as a preschooler, eventually subjecting him to anal rape. When Steve was six, two things happened to change all this: first, they had a second son, and second, his mother walked in on them as his father was engaged in anal sex in him. A short argument ensued, with the ultimate result of her grabbing his gun and shooting him in the head with it.

She took the boys to a friend’s house, the police investigated, and the boys were put in foster care for two years, then returned to her. At this point she was dating again, and ended up marrying the man, who appears to be a remarkably decent man. I gather (from implications rather than explicit statements) he was an executive in the business I mentioned above.

Steve suffered a number of problems as a result of all this, including physical scars from the physical abuse, and incontinence and enuresis from the sexual abuse. And I don’t think I need to detail what it meant to his psyche to have experienced all this as a small child. He became very quiet and reserved, shutting people other than family out for the most part.

After three years, they moved out of state, to the place where the chain was headquartered. The stepfather adopted the two boys.

Steve, a bright boy, was placed in private school – the same one that “Adam” was attending. And life seemed to be good for Steve.

Then his mother and his younger brother went to church one day, Steve and his stepfather staying home. And on their way home, they were struck by a drunk driver and killed instantly.

The impact of this on Steve was devastating. The single thing he had to cling to in the world was his mother and little brother. He retreated to the treehouse he had built, and would talk to no one.

“Adam” appears to have been raised to show compassion and employ good manners towards all. And when he heard that the mother of a classmate whom he liked had been killed, he went to express his sympathy. Steve’s stepfather sent him up to the tree house. And “Adam”’s just being there for him broke through Steve’s reserve and grief. “Adam” would hold Steve as he grieved and talked out his sorrow.

“Adam” stayed with Steve the greater part of the time for several days, and they became close friends. Steve later said that he looked on “Adam” as his mother’s last gift to him, since it took her death to bring them together.

(Near post-size limitation – continued next post)

As we left matters, we have am 11-year-old boy who has truly been through Hell, who has just lost his mother and is living with his stepfather/adoptive father, breaking the shell of the reserve he has built up through the outreach of a classmate who is the son of a super-rich family. The story continues:

The boys became close friends, and, as happens to all of us at about that time, over the next two years they entered puberty. And they discovered that their feelings for each other were not merely friendship but romantic and sexual love. They ended up lying under an old oak tree one night, apparently (from the song associated with this in their notes) having recently watched “The Lion King,” and kissed… And they began, privately, engaging in sexual relations.

Remember that “Adam” had a big brother, who appears to have been an egotistical jerk. He discovered that the boys were engaged in gay sex, and compelled “Adam” to engage in both sexual and humiliating activity (coprophagy was mentioned) at his command, on penalty of telling their parents if he refused. When “Adam” finally rebelled at this, he and his friends beat him up, and the effects of this caused damage to his spine. The surgery and drugs to correct this, in turn, ended up causing damage to a heart valve, resulting in additional hospitalization.

Meanwhile, the whole story came out. Adam’s mother was accepting of the relationship, having suspected something of the sort from the boys’ public behavior. His father, on the other hand, went through a series of traumas – his older son has nearly killed his brother; the younger son is gay; “I’m a failure as a father” – and for a short time put the blame on Adam for what had happened. Eventually he came to accept the relationship, and now is, in Adam’s words, “their strongest supporter.”

The boys continued, with Adam recuperating, making friends with a cancer patient boy who died while he was in for the heart surgery, and having other growing-up experiences. Steve was ostracized at school when they were “outed,” and Adam’s father launched a salvo of attorneys on the school.

Using Adam’s family’s money, the boys and adult friends established a statewide gay youth network. They created the twin websites (one for each boy) were I harvested this information. And, eventually, they closed the websites and continued on with “normal” lives.

=====

Like our other historic instances, here we have a child of privilege who is compelled to come face to face with a reality that changes his life – in this case, that he’s gay, and that he too can be the victim of violent homophobia – so violent he nearly died of its effects. And his boyfriend, the person who matters most to him, was the victim of every form of child abuse imaginable.

He is about 19 now. I’ve seen or heard nothing more of him, online or otherwise, since 1999. Probably he and Steve are at college. But I see in the scenario of what the boys have been through the basis for a dedication to changing the world, so far as they can. And his own talents and his family’s immense resources give him all he needs to make a major impact.

Some months ago, Iampunha reported on a speech he had made, an updating of the “I have a dream” speech of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. This reminded me of what “Adam” wrote on his website, at age 13, about his dreams for the future – in fact, it’s what got me started thinking about this whole story again. That passage follows, just as he wrote it then:

Chirp, chirp, chirp…

badchad is right. Once you’ve made a conscious decision to abandon rational thinking in one sphere of your life, there’s just no limit to the nonsense you’re prepared to believe.

Umm. Trying to be gentle here: what’s so Earth shattering about that? Many thoughtful 13yr olds would have similar musings, especially after a MLK Jr lesson.

Wondering: how weighty to you take the “historical parallels”? Were the others on your list fulfilling the role of Jesus in their time?

PS
I would disagree that Buddhism has generally devolved into Westernland style.

I hate to say it Poly, but you’re setting off the WOOP WOOP WOOP LOONY ALERT ALARM.

I apologize for being too cryptic in e-mail. I was simply amused at the inordinate length of this thread and had not meant to imply that you were deliberately (or even accidentally) emulating the Great Evolution Basher From NE Ohio. I went to e-mail simply to avoid dragging the thread out longer.

Sorry if I was brusque, somehow I was expected something more concrete. A throwing the lenders out of the temple type thing. The quoted bit seems nothing more than “Wouldn’t it be great if everyone was happy and got along”.

I would also be wary of the notion that trauma and hardship will produce a good person. It’s hit and miss at best.
I’m actually trying to beat any jerkier responses to the punch with these questions. Please elucidate.

This is interesting Polycarp. There is enough information here for someone enterprising enough to figure out who this young man is. I am sure Google is humming with the searches as I write this.

Have you in any way tried to contact this young man?

Haj

Well, my Loony Alarms aren’t going off, but I don’t see anything particularly insightful or special or earth-shattering or “Messiah-ish”, if you will, about the message. How does that message prove that this particular person is God’s Chosen Instrument to bring us the Second Gospel, or however you’re phrasing it?

It sounds like typical wistful-adolescent blog stuff to me. Is the Message-with-a-capital-M only going to be happy-happy wistful-adolescent stuff this time around? Jesus’ message entailed quite a bit of blood-and-thunder “woe to you, scribes and Pharisees”. This time around, is God going to be much less judgemental? Are even the scribes and Pharisees going to be awarded 21st century touchy-feely “nothing is ever anyone’s fault” you’re-not-evil-you’re-just-sick forgiveness?

And frankly, I’m not that interested in ferreting out who this Chosen Instrument is supposed to be, if the best he can come up with is by way of deep spiritual guidance for Humanity is, “My Dad says Dreams are like the future, they are what you make of them”. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen that on a t-shirt.

Or maybe it was a coffee mug.

You mentioned a “possible martyrdom” earlier. Maybe it’s just my upbringing, but somehow I expect my Martyrs For Truth[sup]TM[/sup] to offer a more substantial message than “wouldn’t it be nice if everyone got along”…

Or are we supposed to wait until he grows into the role?

When Jesus was 12, He was in the Temple, astonishing his elders. I don’t see anybody being astonished here by a few paragraphs of a wistful-adolescent weblog entry.

What exactly had Jesus V1.0 done by 19? Nothing except for one Apocryphal account you mention at age 12.

Ok DDG enough with your opinions and break out the Google kung-fu. :wink:

I agree with you though, seems weak. It is almost as if Poly was expecting the Second(not final??) Coming is to be an edit job on all the stern stuff. I await further info or insights.

Maybe I’ve just got a different meaning from what Poly’s said in this thread, but I don’t believe it’s supposed to prove that. Why would you think it could or would?

Be born without the aid of sperm?

We know only what we have been told, DDG (if we happen to believe, by whichever sources, what we are told). When Shirley Temple was 3 she was a millionaire. Does that mean, because of what she was doing as a young child, that she showed up Jesus?

Perhaps we could dare show some of that personal tenacity Polycarp has shown by being decent human beings instead of saying to him, who has dared to say something controversial, that he’s going crazy? I got no harsh treatment being honest about my psychosis. And it changed my life just as Polycarp’s beliefs here have surely altered his.

Perhaps he is wrong and perhaps he is right. What damage does it do us to to wait and see rather than castigate now?

I’m no Biblical scholar, DDG, but ISTM that a large portion of Jesus’ message was specifically “wouldn’t it be nice if everyone got along”, thus The Great Commission and its close follower (which IMO is nothing but the first borne out toward other humans).

If you disagree with him, there are far more charitable ways of saying it, regardless of the nature of the disagreement or your ability to be charitable.

That “you” in my last paragraph was not meant specifically to DDG, to clear up any confusion regarding that.

Insanity is a matter of not being able to function on an everyday level. Clearly atheists, Christians, Muslims, and I dare say even Discordians can do this (I’m skeptical about this last group, but when I asked myself if I was able to function on an everyday level, I said “Yes,” so I figure that settles the matter).

The normalcy of a belief is largely worthless once we’ve ruled out obvious insanity.

Unlike Diogenes who apparently feels that events which violate the laws of physics are impossible in a strict sense (not in some probabistatisticallicious[sup]†[/sup] sense), I’m fairly confident that we do not know the laws of physics in such a sense that we could claim anything is impossible. Unlike those arguing statistics, I do not feel we know enough about the (uncountable and not able to be constructed) set of circumstances that are possible to make any numerical analysis in the matter of religious phenomena. Any discussion of Bayesian statistics I have read still requires some concrete probabilities to be known (even if they are only empirical), and this is precisely what is lacking in the case of religious phenomena. We just don’t know:[list=1][li]how likely it is that any religion is true (argues against classical statistical justification);[]how many reported religious events should be under consideration (argues against Bayesian interpretation and classical interpretation);[]how accurate the people are even if we assume completely honest reporting (i.e., can they have seen something incorrectly?); and,we cannot use any means to make an inference about such accuracy (RE: (3)) as we cannot generate genuine religious phenomena to test against, and most of the people who reported the most striking events are dead anyway[/list=1][/li]If we are using statistics to ensure empirical beliefs are justified, then religious beliefs are pretty much always unjustified.

That said, I don’t see what the fuss is all about. Poly, I thought, stated his position clearly enough the first time that I am simply astounded by the Christian naysayers who feel his position is at odds with the bible, or that Poly is on the verge of being a cultist (I mean really). He feels he may know a person who would fulfill the prophecies. Clearly, at some point, every Christian believes that someone will fulfill the prophecies, so there’s no problem there. Clearly, Poly makes no assertion that this child is the Christ, so there’s no problem with those who assert a false Christ. Possibly clearly, no one has demonstrated that the Bible actually forbids the next Christ to only come in such a way as to dispute all naysayers, only that when he chose to make himself known there could be no doubt.

So the problem here seems to be an unease with the idea that we are actually living in the time of the second coming of Christ, yet someone has to.

We’ll see, won’t we? It doesn’t sound like Poly is betting the farm on this. If ever there was a mountain out of a molehill, it is this thread.

While my looney alarm isn’t going off, my irony meter has driven the needle so far over that I think it is permanently damaged. Poly’s claim isn’t any more outrageous than any religion’s claims at all. Someone once said when you look into the abyss, the abyss looks back.

Poly suspects he knows, but when he does know we all will know (assuming the prophecy is correct). What the fuck is the big deal?

DDG

I’m pretty sure Christian mythology, morality, and ontology were all anticipated to various degrees as well. What the hell does that have to do with anything?

†[sub]Heh![/sub]

Um, because Poly said that what he read on this kid’s website was what convinced him that this kid was The One, so when he came back with excerpts from said website, I expected to see some kind of proof. Poly’s saying, “This kid’s website convinced me, and here’s an excerpt, see for yourselves”.
From way back on page whatever:

**Now, I’m sorry, but those three paragraphs of wistful-adolescent-weblog don’t add up to me as having anywhere NEAR the impact of the “I have a dream” speech.