Pool question (specifically about 8-Ball)...

Factual Questions
21

I call bullshit. I’ve been playing 30+ years, in over a dozen states and around the world, and the best players will spank your hiney regardless of which “rules system” you care to name.

Wow. 8 whole years?

That’s probably in my top 10 of the “Most Arrogant Proclamations on the SDMB,” and this board is silly with them.

As I said earlier, the best players have the hand-eye coordination, and the intuitive understanding of geometry and force-vectors to beat their opponents by whatever “rules system” you care to play name.

As opposed to what? “Gay” pool?

ntucker already gave the best answer as to why “bar rules” abound and often trump “official” rules:

It’s because most bar tables are coin operated, and you can’t retrieve a ball to spot it w/o coughing up more money.

In case the BCA snobs missed it, I’ll repeat it:

It’s because most bar tables are coin operated, and you can’t retrieve a ball to spot it w/o coughing up more money.

In case it just didn’t stick (in my experience, BCA-only players have overinflated opinions of their skill and their place within the pool-playing world):

It’s because most bar tables are coin operated, and you can’t retrieve a ball to spot it w/o coughing up more money.

It’s as simple as that.

What’s cheesed me off of pool is all of the posers coming out of the woodwork who think that they’re Minnesota Fats just because they know BCA rules, and look down their noses at us “amateurs” playing friendly pick-up games at the local pool hall. They can take their “Play BCA or stay home” attitude and jam it right up their center pocket until they choke on it.

22

But what he said was “my opinon that those who dont play often dont know the BCA rules.” How have you contradicted this statement?

I know that you must know what straight pool is. What are you trying to accomplish by pretending that you don’t?

Thanks for repeating that and making your text bold. However, it only serves to amplify your own misunderstanding of BCA rules. Out of all the differences between BCA and “bar” rules, the only one where your repeated claim would matter is in the fairly rare case of the eight-ball being pocketed on the break. All those other rule differences which make for a better game can be played equally well on a “real” table or a coin-op one. Your reason not to play BCA is not a real reason at all.

I’m sorry for any inappropriateness of attitude on my part that I might have implied.

23

Tank, anytime you’re in Vegas I’ll be happy to give you a game, and by any rules you wish to use.

Yes, I’ve played a whole 8 years. During that time I have played two to three times a week. If you would have read a the entireity of my statement, I said I believe that I am better than most recreational players. Now, by recreational I mean those who only play once a month, every other month, or something like that. I am well aware that there are those out there who are far and beyond a better shot than I am. Also, you are correct, the rules will not preclude a good player from being good. However, by using an accepted set of rules there is no gray area on what is allowed and what is not.

As has been pointed out, The only ball that ever gets spotted is the 8 ball off the break.

Any ball sunk in 9 ball also stays down.

Straight, oh sorry, 14.1 continous pool, is the only game that balls are brough back up if pocked illeagily. I’ll wager that anyone playing this game will not be playing on coin-op tables.

24

ack…must preview before submitting…Damn I hate getting fired up and responding…lets try this again with the post corrected for spelling…

Tank, anytime you’re in Vegas I’ll be happy to give you a game, and by any rules you wish to use.

Yes, I’ve played a whole 8 years. During that time I have played two to three times a week. If you would have read a the entirety of my statement, I said I believe that I am better than most recreational players. Now, by recreational I mean those who only play once a month, every other month, or something like that. I am well aware that there are those out there who are far and beyond a better shot than I am. Also, you are correct, the rules will not preclude a good player from being good. However, by using an accepted set of rules there is no gray area on what is allowed and what is not.

As has been pointed out, The only ball that ever gets spotted is the 8 ball off the break.

Any ball sunk in 9 ball also stays down.

Straight, oh sorry, 14.1 continuous pool, is the only game that balls are brought back up if pocked illegally. I’ll wager that anyone playing this game will not be playing on coin-op tables.

25

Because I paid my membership, I have an opinion, and because there is animosity between the “bar rules” folks and the “official rules” folks.

What gives you the right to stomp in here acting like you’re the king of this thread?

I hardly think asking him what kind of sissy bar he played in is “throwing insults,” but you are entitled to your opinion.

Um, no. I wasn’t correcting his observations. See my preface (the one that reads: “bar rules, as I know them:”)

You can’t point out the differences between common bar rules and BCA rules without laying claim to knowledge of the bar rules.

It was the wording of this sentence: “There are no arguments or players feeling they have to stop because of some honor thing, you just shoot again.”

It reads as though he feels that players shouldn’t be slowed down by having to worry about playing honorably. I find that absurd. I think mine is a reasonable interpretation of that sentence.

This has not been my experience, and I am guessing that I have played a lot more bar pool than you have. It’s quite simple, really. The rules are agreed upon in 10 words, during the introductory handshake. The exchange usually goes something like this: “Call the pocket or call the shot?” To which they’ll reply either, “Call the shot,” or “Call the pocket.” I don’t know what other interpretations there could be, unless, of course, you think you’re Fats and are trying to impress everyone with your knowledge of the BCA rules.

26

It is my opinion that BCA rules are superior to ‘bar’ rules. This makes sense because the BCA has actually had people who have played pool for decades spend a long time thinking about how to balance the game, and the rules have been refined over the years to make the game better. ‘Bar’ rules only work because the ‘honor’ system is usually backed up by implicit threats of violence (or maybe that’s just the kind of bars that I used to hang out in).

I once played a tournament where the director decided that ‘bar’ rules would be used. It was a disaster. For example, if the opponent’s last ball was behind the headstring, and the shooter’s balls were tied up, it’s a common strategy to break open the balls and scratch the cueball, forcing the opponent to shoot a long bank to hit his ball. Safety play is impossible, because if you play the other player safe he could just walk up and nudge the cueball 1/16 of an inch and force you to shoot again with no penalty. There are occasions when the shooter would just shoot the cueball straight into a pocket to force the other player to play a bank.

Again, this doesn’t happen in regular bar games because if you do this it’s considered ‘dishonorable’ and an altercation would ensue. But the whole POINT of a rule system is to prevent people from having to rely on the honor of the other player to keep the game fair and the playing field level. Things like the ball in hand rule punish the player who fouled to take away the advantage of intentional fouls.

I don’t much like 8-ball anyway, because A) there is too much luck involved, and B) there are too many rule systems. The games I enjoy playing, in order, are 9-ball, straight pool, one pocket, then 8-ball. One pocket is the best game if the two players play at a high level, but for average players or mismatched players it’s a disaster.

A good game to play by yourself or on the internet is ‘internet equal offense’, which is played like straight pool, only you can play against yourself or against other players remotely. Great fun. Perhaps we should get an SDMB equal offense league going. I think I’ll post a new thread about it in Cafe society.

27

There. I started a new thread, in MPSIMS:

Let’s Play Internet Equal Offense

28

I am not familiar with BCA rules at all, so I can’t argue whether one is superior over another. I have only played bar pool, and have to say that I’ve never experienced any implicit threats of violence, nor have I doled any out. Of course, that doesn’t mean that wasn’t your experience. It just wasn’t mine.

That’s not to say that I didn’t come across an asshole from time to time, but beating them was usually enough satisfaction for me; guys don’t like getting beaten by a girl. :smiley:

I played on a league for several months once, and we always played bar rules, even though the racks were unlocked (no coin required). Perhaps the rules were just a regional, unspoken thing. It was always pretty straight-foward, or at least easily decided. If someone wanted to play by a different set of rules, that was usually just fine - as long as it was discussed and decided before the game began.

There was one great pool club/bar in my neighborhood in the early 80s called The Shark Club. It had bar and regulation size tables, and a killer selection of tap beer. Some players DID follow official rules there, but most played by bar rules.

I enjoy a game of 9-ball as well, but I’m better at 8-ball. I’ve just been playing it longer.

Do you have a table at home? And is it regulation or bar size?

29

We’ve got an 8 foot table at home, which just got set up again after four years in storage while we finished the basement. It’s actually slightly bigger than 8 feet - about halfway between an 8-foot and 9-foot table. I wish we had a 9-foot table, but when we bought this one for our old house, it’s all we could fit.

So when you play a tournament with ‘bar rules’, what stops a player from intentionally scratching, or intentionally pocketing one of your balls that’s in a strategic position for you, or doing any number of other questionable things? ‘Honor’?

It’s amazing how quickly honor goes out the window when you’re playing the finals of a tournament and a few hundred dollars are riding on the game. That’s why you need unambiguous rules that include punishments for plays like that. If I’ve got a ball hanging in a pocket and you intentionally sink it on me, I’d better get a ball in hand to make up for that. If my only other ball is behind the headstring, if you sink my ball using ‘bar rules’, not only do you open a pocket for yourself, but you force me to make a difficult bank. Of course, since it’s ‘bar rules’, I don’t have to make the bank, since there’s no real penalty for missing. So I’m just as likely to return the favor by perhaps shooting one of your balls softly into another to tie them both up, or just nudging the cueball behind my ball anyway so you don’t have a shot. Then what do you do?

Or consider this situation: The cueball is behind the 8-ball, and we each have one open ball left on the table. So I walk up, and touch the cueball with my cue and say, “Your shot”. Are you going to go for some difficult bank to try to make your ball? You’ll almost certainly fail, and I’ll have an easy win. So you walk up, and nudge the cueball back to where it was and say, “Your shot”. Then I do it again. When does it stop? This actually happened to me in a bar rules tournament, and the tournament director’s ruling was to declare the game a tie and force us to re-rack and start over. That sucks.

In a real bar game, if you do that the likely response from the other player will be to say, “You can’t do that, man!” And I’ll say, “Why not?” And either an argument will break out, or one player will get pissed off and stalk away. That’s why better rules are needed. ‘Bar rules’ only exist because it’s not feasible to make sure that every patron of the bar have a rulebook. It’s not the best way to play, it’s just the nature of the environment. But ‘bar rules’ should be avoided whenever possible.

30

Yeah, we’ve got a forum for the animosity. The tone was pretty civil in here until you decided to come in with a chip on your shoulder. You seem to think that people are looking down on bar rules, so you’re in a huff about it. No such thing is happening here.

So you’re offended by “you ‘bar rules’ people”, but don’t see the offense in calling people sissies because of their choice of pool rules? Weird.

Yeah, and when he said, for example, that one of the ways BCA differs from bar rules is that scratching on the 8 is not a loss, you responded, “False. Scratching on the 8 is a loss,” indicating that you didn’t bother to read what he was saying. That whole list you “corrected” was referring to BCA rules, clueless.

The point is that it’s easier because there is never any question, not because it’s such a burden to be honorable. There’s a lot of subtlety in the “honorable” way, whether you want to admit it or not. Ever been playing “call the pocket”, then had someone complain that you didn’t call a double-kiss? I have.

Interesting. I’ve seen this sort of disagreement, and you haven’t, and this brings you to the conclusion that you must be the one with more experience?

31

I agree that that’s the sort of thing “official” rules were meant to fix, but I would definitely not go so far as to say bar rules should be avoided whenever possible. As long as you’re playing a friendly game, it really doesn’t matter what rules you play by; everyone plays honorably and nobody is going to get mad and dispute things. But for any game that matters, official rules are far superior.

I have one friend who I used to play with a lot, and we’re ruthlessly competitive, but both honorable enough about playing that we can actually ask each other for advice on a shot, and get an honest and useful opinion. In one instance, he came to the conclusion that a shot I recommended was impossible, so I offered to shoot it for him. He accepted, I made it, and he continued shooting. :slight_smile: So the idea that I’m anti-honor is silly. I just don’t think game-deciding rulings should rely on it.

32

And even this can be dealt with on a coin-op table. One unofficial way of “respotting the 8” (if it was sunk on the break) is to make the 6 ball the “new 8”. On the rare occasions when both the 8 and the 6 fall on the break, the 4 ball becomes the 8.

I learned this from some Bud Light League (formerly Busch league) players playing “off-the-clock” in bars. “Replacement” 8 balls are definitely ad hoc conventions, not a BCA rule.

33

I think pocketing the 8 on the break is rare enough in 8-ball that it should be an automatic win. I’ve done it exactly once, and I don’t remember ever having an opponent sink one off the break on me.

34

I used to prefer 9-ball, but with the prevalence now of BCA rules for 8-ball, I think that is a better game. I think there’s less luck involved than 9-ball now. Straight pool is a great game, but you need to have well-matched opponents. 8-ball and 9-ball have the “advantage” that there is enough luck to let a less skilled player win occasionally, plus they don’t take long to play, which is nice in social settings.

35

In 99 out of 100 bar games, this would be an automatic win. In a very friendly game, normally my opponent and I would keep playing anyway with a “new” 8 ball so that we’d get our 50 cents worth on a coin-op table (now commonly a buck :eek: – I’ve been out of the loop a while).

That said, my example above would be a situation where all players present were aware of BCA rules, and agreed to them beforehand.

36

It’s my favorite, but I know what you mean that most casual players don’t seem to have heard of it.

I went to watch a tournament in New York City a few years ago and saw a guy run 120-and-out to win the semi-final. And every shot looked easy, that’s how good the guy was.

I know the kind of scoring wheels you’re talking about, but the only true way to keep score in straight pool is with the beads on wires over your head. Haven’t you ever seen The Hustler?

And I’m not sure I follow your rationale about the players rack scores and the balls left on the table adding up to 15. The way I’ve always played straight pool is to shoot until there’s one object ball left on the table, rack the other 14 and keep playing. You keep track of the current run by the player at the table (which can go on for several racks if he’s good), but nothing about keeping scores per player per rack.

37

The wheels at the end of the table do work. There is two sets of two whees. One wheel in each set is used to track the number of balls each player has made this rack. Now The number of balls on the table, plus the number each player has made this rack always adds up to 15. Just makes it easier, so you don’t have to count balls as you go. The second wheel of the set is used to keep track of the number of balls you’ve made over the whole game.

38

Well, I suppose you could do it that way, but there’s no reason to and a very good reason to do it differently.

In straight pool, the number of balls each player sinks from a particular rack has no bearing on the game, but the number in your currect run definitely does matter. On a foul, a player loses one point from the end of his previous inning. That could be several racks worth, and you need some way to keep track of the current run.

With the scoring beads on wires, you’d move a bead about halfway over for each ball that was sunk. On a run of five, it would look something like this:

00000000---------00000---------00000000000000

If you miss on a legal shot, take that whole run and slide it to the finished side. If you foul, you slide them back to the unfinished side and one more as a penalty.

I think the way to score with the wheels would be similar. Use one set of wheels as each player’s total score, use the other for the current player’s run.

39

I don’t understand this. How does this disadvantage you? On the rare occasion that I play 8-ball, if my opponent sinks one of my balls on his turn, I thank him. Of course, my typical opponents are usually nearly as inept at the game as I am, so such a circumstance is invariably accidental when it happens, but I’m not sure why a good player would ever do so deliberately.

40

Robot Arm, it sounds like you’re saying that if I run ten balls then end that turn with a foul, that I won’t get credit for any of the ten. Is that what you’re saying? 'Cause I’ve never played like that.

In that case, you would score ten for those you made legally, then get a minus one for the foul, for a net of nine.

When scoring with the wheels, the first number for each player is how many he’s made out of the current rack. The second number is how many he’s made before the current rack. At any point, the rack scores for each player, plus the number of balls on the table, should add up to 15. This is handy because you can check frequently to make sure that no one missed a count. When there’s just one ball left, there will be a total of 14 on both players’ rack scores, so when you rack up the 14 balls, you also transfer the rack total for each player to his cumulative total, and zero out the rack scores. A player’s score at any time is the sum of his rack plus the cumulative score.

If I have a ball sitting in the jaws of a pocket, that’s equivalent to a “free spin” token on Wheel of Fortune. If I get in trouble, I always have a way to get me out of it with a ball blocking a hole. Plus, my ball will block that hole for my opponent. If I say “thank you” for knocking in this ball, I’ll say it sarcastically.