Hello, all! Ok, if someone can settle this, I’d appreciate it.
Here’s the scenerio: a player has two balls left on the table…HIS OWN 10 ball, and the 8 ball. The player calls and makes, in one impressive shot, the cue into the 10 (knocking the 10 into the called pocket), the cue then ricochetting off of the 10 into the OPPONENT’S ball (lets say the 9 for argument’s sake), which then hits the 8 ball, knocking IT into the called pocket.
An amazing shot to set up and make! But…is it legal? I believe the 8 ball has to be a pure shot…it can’t be taken off of the opponent’s ball in ANY scenerio, even if called ahead of time in a viruosic display of pool playing skill. The guy who MADE the shot said that since he called it, and as long as he hit his own ball first, that it was completely legal.
Does anyone know the answer to this query? AND…does anyone have a website that can back it up? I don’t forsee him taking the word of my beloved dopers if they disagree with him. I’d search it out myself, but I’m currently on a computer with a connection that is slower than Paris Hilton taking an ethics quiz. (-;
Saying “I’ve always played it that you’d win for such a shot” is hardly in GQ spirit. A very quick and dirty cite is a touch better, but I’d really love an official rulebook. Still, the relevant part:
Do note, however, that few people in non-tournament play actually follow the official rules, so there’s still a question as to how this is commonly played. I’ve very rarely encountered anyone who followed rule 4.19, for example. (it says that scratching when shooting the 8 is not an automatic loss unless you pocket the 8 or knock it completely off the table)
I have played bar pool for years, on a league for a time, and unless he called that eight ball in that pocket with that shot, it’s SLOP, and not only does he not get it, he LOST because he essentially “scratched” on the eight ball.
Interesting reply galt; notice that there is a ‘note’ at the end of 4.19 that states, “A combination shot can never be used to legally pocket the 8-ball, except when the 8-ball is the first ball contacted in the shot sequence.” So, ‘by the rules’, freewill39’s opponent loses either way.
However…
Local rules abound; in South-central Minnesota, rule 4.19 is followed, a scratch on the 8-ball does not mean loss of game. While playing in Colorado, all shots must be called, including kisses, caroms, cushions, etc. There are also variations - 8-ball follows, 8-ball into a side pocket, must bank 8-ball, ad infinitum.
The point: Clearly state rules prior to break or ask for and follow ‘local’ rules.
Not sure about ‘official rules’ but here’s how I play in ‘bar rules’.
Personal Bar rules 8-ball stuff:
you cannot hit any other ball first as ‘neutral’ to hit the 8-ball in
you can hit the 8 ball first and ‘walk it’ into a pocket blocked by another ball, but you have to make both balls in the pocket
ANY shot involving the 8 ball has to be called in advance - in your case, he didn’t call the 8 off the other ball before sinking it, so he loses. All banks, glances off other balls, etc…have to be called in advance. i.e. if he didn’t call a ‘double kiss’ on the pocket he would lose
generally in play, you have to call the pocket and the ball, including any banks / etc before every shot.
“Bar rules” trump official rules in a lot of places, for the simple reason that the official rules call for spotting balls that have been sunk in certain situations (e.g. the 8-ball on the break), and bar tables are often the kind that won’t give you the balls back unless you pay for another game.
I just looked over the rules and found it interesting that they don’t call for spotting balls that are knocked off the table. It’s as if they’re sunk. So you could conceivably launch one of your balls on purpose if it’s your only shot, and it would benefit you (although the opponent gets ball in hand).
As far as the OP goes, my personal rules are generally that you can do whatever wacky combo you want, so long as the first ball you hit is your own. In a friendly game (the only kind I ever play), I’d clarify that it was legal just before making that shot, giving the other person a chance to object.
I’m surprised there are still this many people unfamiliar with BCA rules. I used to struggle with the local bar rules, which are ambiguous and often make for a “foul to screw the other guy” kind of shot, but that was more than 20 years ago when I was in college. Since then, and especially in the last ten years or so, almost everyone I run across prefers to play by BCA rules. For you bar-rules types, the big differences I can recall are:
table is always open after the break shot, even if you make one or more - you have to make an intended shot to be that group of balls.
After the cue ball contacts your object ball, something either has to be driven to a rail or pocketed, or it’s a foul shot. If you bank the cue ball off eight rails, then gently contact your object ball, and after that instant, no balls hit a rail, then it’s a foul.
Fouling, including scratching, while shooting for the eight ball is a regular foul, not a loss of game. However, making the eight too early or making it in the wrong pocket is a loss of game.
The penalty for a foul is that the next player has ball in hand, anywhere on the table. This avoids that old common problem in bars where someone intentionally scratches to force his opponent to shoot the 8-ball behind the line. The exception to this rule is that after a scratch on the break shot, the next player has to put the cue ball behind the head string.
You have to call a ball in a pocket (or imply calling a ball in a pocket by a simple shot), but you don’t have to say how it gets there. If you call the three in the corner, and you at first miss, but the three bounces all around the table only to come back and fall in that same pocket you called, it’s your shot again. There are no arguments or players feeling they have to stop because of some honor thing, you just shoot again.
The order of balls falling in a single shot doesn’t matter - if my opponent’s three is blocking a corner pocket, and I roll my ten ball up to it, knocking in the three and then my ten follows it in, that’s a common and valid shot.
But in the situation described in the OP, I have never heard of any style of play which would allow you to make the eight ball on the same shot as your last group ball.
Another deviation from the BCA rules which I’ve found to be all but universal in “bar rules,” is pocketing the eight ball on the break counts as a win.
Guess I can’t speak for all of Texas, but in San Antonio banks, caroms, combos, etc. are all called. No luck involved. Makes for a more skillful, challenging game.
Um, no, they’re definitely not ambiguous, and I seldom meet people who play “to screw the other guy.”
What kind of sissy bars do you play in there in Texas?
Hmm, what does that mean, exactly?
I’ve played bar pool all over the country (in 28 states, actually), in dive bars and in nice bars. Bar rules, as I know them:
True
False.
False. Scratching on the 8 is a loss.
Um, no. If you can’t shoot the 8-ball from behind the line, you have no business playing.
That honor thing? You mean, playing honorably? Yeah, gawd forbid that should happen.
Slop is only acceptable if approved by all players before the game begins, but most I’ve encountered do not like to play that way. Among honorable people, there is no arguing about slop shots. If you didn’t call the shot, you don’t shoot again. End of story.
I have to concur with Large Marge’s bar rules observations.
To be honest, I don’t think most casual bar players know BCA rules. Nobody I know plays ball-in-hand (which I prefer). Everybody I know plays scratch-on-the-8-you-lose. One RARE bar variation I see is that if your opponent scratches and your only object ball(s) is(are) behind the string, you can spot your object ball on the head spot, thereby not requiring you to bank in order to hit your object. I like playing this variation because it restricts your opponent from playing cheap shots and purposely scratching.
Then, of course, there are the British bar rules which allow you TWO shots after a foul.
I just want to add my opinon that those who dont play often dont know the BCA rules.
I’ve been playing for about 8 years. I am better then the majority of recreational players out there. I’ve found that most people who play by “bar rules” (ball behind the head line, loose if fouling on the 8, ect…) also are not terribly good players. Those who can really play know the rules. Although, before I play with anyone I ensure we agree on the rules.
<hijack> What ever happened to straight pool? My father and I play this and 95% of the time we get a bunch of odd looks from everyone in the hall </hijack>
What makes you think you should stomp in here and start acting like there’s some kind of animosity between the “bar rules” folks and the “official rules” folks? Settle down.
So you’re the only one throwing insults, but in response to the perfectly neutral phrase, “for you ‘bar rules’ folks,” you decide to take offense:
Then you go through point-by-point and “correct” his observations, when all he was doing was pointing out the differences between common bar rules and BCA rules. He wasn’t claiming those were bar rules.
Somehow you interpreted his description of the BCA rules to be an attack on “playing honorably.” I don’t particularly care one way or the other, but it is nice to not have to rely on some stranger’s idea of “fairness,” because a lot of people have very different interpretations of “call any non-obvious shot.” It’s no fun to play pool (or, hint, hint, discuss it) with someone who easily gets their panties in a bunch and gets confrontational. Clear rules that don’t rely on ill-defined notions of honor pretty much solve that problem.
I like straight pool too, but it’s kind of hard to keep score in most pool halls nowadays since the tables they have don’t have the score wheels on the end. Those made straight pool scorekeeping fairly easy if you know how to do it (have separate tallies for the rack count vs. the cumulative score, so the two rack count scores plus the balls left on the table should always add up to 15). I wrote a scorekeeper program for my Palm to do this function, and even automate part of it so that you just have to click how many balls are left on the table and it does the rest. But straight pool takes a long time for a single game, which is great if you and another person are playing each other for the evening, but too slow if you want to rotate players in and out.
Typically I play in the kind of pool halls where leagues play, though I’ve never been in a league myself - I do play in a once-a-month tournament among a bunch of guys I know, and we have a trophy that goes home with the winner that month. The kind of place where they have good tables, 8.5 or 9-footers, Simonis cloth (I have an 8-footer w/ Simonis at home too). My most recent business trip I went down to Houston and dropped into this pool hall there, and ended up playing all night with Annie Mayes, who played on the WPBA pro tour for about 25 years - guess what rules we both preferred to play? Does this prove your point that I play in sissy bars?
Well, yeah. You’re playing in a pool hall. Bar rules apply on tables that take quarters and do not permit the respotting of pocketed balls. If you’re playing in a league pool hall then, yeah, people are going to follow BCA. Come to Chicago and play in a random bar down the street and ain’t noone playing by anything but typical bar rules.