I should clarify this.
What I mean is that I agree, most don’t know that a rule book exists, but I don’t think that’s why they play. I think that if they had to play by the officials rules, most bar players wouldn’t play.
Why do you say this? Playing BCA rules is just as fun as bar rules IMHO. The game’s not that different. What do you perceive the BCA rules to be taking away from the game that saps all the fun out?
True, it’s not worth bad feelings to insist on BCA rules in a friendly bar match, obviously. Folks that do that are deservedly shunned. But why “hate” on the BCA rules themselves?
Because it’s my opinion.
It doesn’t sound like fun to me at all. I don’t want to play with people who are that freaking serious about winning. The game and the people I play with are more important to me than winning it.
Where did you get the word “hate”?
If I may attempt an answer, I think it’s probably that anyone that attached to ‘bar rules’ is probably accustomed to making strategic use of certain aspects of the game that would be a problem under BCA rules, such as scratching. If you’re the type of person who smugly leaves your opponent with a table-length cue ball bank shot on the 8 (which is a much more dangerous shot in bar rules, because scratching is automatic loss of game), you’re going to be annoyed to not have that little trick up your sleeve just because some sissy rule book says it’s a ball-in-hand penalty.
Personally, I think that kind of shot is dishonorable, but plenty of bar rules players think it’s perfectly fine. It’s ok, I don’t get mad when people do it, I’d just never do it myself. This is one reason I like BCA rules – when you’re relying on two seperate people’s definition of “honorable”, you’re always going to have situations where one person’s definition is a little looser than the other’s, so one person is at a disadvantage. I’m a good enough player that I can grant the other person every questionable shot, and grant myself none and still have a good time playing, but it’s more satisfying not to have to do that.
Opinions normally have bases, though – I assume your feelings didn’t come from a vacuum.
Playing with BCA rules is not necessarily a more serious game than playing bar rules. I don’t get the BCA rules = hyer-competition thing. Lots of people play lots of laid-back games for funsies using BCA rules.
It sounds like what you’re saying is that you don’t like playing with ultra-competive people, which is fine. Not sure what that has to do with BCA rules. Someone can be hyper-competitive playing bar rules, as well.
I mean “hate on (something)”, meaning “have a beef with, have a specific problem with”.
I don’t always play pool hyper-competitively. When I’m out with friends, it’s just pool for fun unless they happen to be serious pool players, then we’ll really knuckle down.
I still prefer playing with the rulebook, because it just makes everything cut and dried. I play monopoly for fun too, but I’m glad there is a rulebook we can refer to. It wouldn’t be much fun if we made it up as we went along.
“Bar Rules” leads to dilemmas like ntucker’s. His definition of dishonorable may not match his opponent’s. So even in a ‘fun’ game, there might be hard feelings. I’ve run into this myself. If I don’t have a shot, I might try to play a safety. More than once I’ve been confronted by someone who thought this was ‘dirty pool’. But many opponents don’t. This kind of ambiguity makes the game LESS fun, and more likely to lead to hard feelings and anger.
If you play by the rulebook, and everyone understands that what is ‘fair’ is what is within the rules, then there’s no possibility of hard feelings. It makes the game more fun.
I occasionally run a ‘fun’ tournament at work, and when I first started doing it I introduced the BCA rulebook to the players, most of whom had never heard of a ‘ball in hand’ before. They were bar rules players, and they didn’t much llike those rules, at first. But even though we just play for fun, I’ve found that most of them not only like those rules in the tournament, but when we go out for a beer and pool after work they want to play BCA rules. In my opinion, it just makes for a better game. Which makes sense, because BCA rules have been refined for decades by people who truly love the game, whereas ‘bar rules’ are ad-hoc, vary from establishment to establishment, and often have no rhyme or reason to them.
For example, a lot of bars play ‘call shot’, meaning you have to call all kisses and rail contact on your shot. Usually, this rule exists because the half-drunken, testosterone-laden denizens of the bar think this makes it a ‘man’s game’ or something, mistakenly thinking it makes the game harder. But what it does is make the game impossible to referee. If I call the 2 straight into the corner but it goes off the rail first, I lose my turn. But what if it hits the jaw of the pocket first? Or 2 inches from the jaw? Or since there’s no referee, what happens when one player says, “You touched the 3 on the way past!”, and the other player honestly disagrees? This sucks.
Maybe this is my misspent youth showing, but I have seen many fights break out in bars over disagreements about pool shots. This is entirely the fault of the people playing poorly defined, ad-hoc rules that often make no sense.
First, the generalizations about people who go to bars isn’t nice, and isn’t necessary to make your point.
Second, people usually request “call shot” because there is less room for misunderstanding when you play that way, not because it makes the game “harder.” I prefer to play that way because I think people should get credit for skill, not for luck.
And again, I’ve never seen a fight break out over the rules of a bar game. Ever.
I’ll try to say this without sounding condescending. Sam sounds like he’s played a long time. I’ve played a long time - I got my first 8-foot pool table in 1974. We both know all about bar rules because we’ve played them, a lot. We also know BCA rules, and strongly prefer them. It’s apparent that you have never tried them, you just have this inherent animosity against “those personalities” who play that way, whatever that means - Sam and I have both been very polite to you, but on the other hand I can’t say that you’ve always been polite towards us.
Further, I don’t know anyone who has tried BCA rules who doesn’t strongly prefer them. I suspect you would if you tried, and somehow got past your animosity.
I can’t understand how you can believe this. I think we’ve determined that “call shot” means that you have to specify any rails, combinations, or caroms that might happen to a ball on its way to a pocket. On the other hand, “call pocket” means that you specify a certain ball in a certain pocket, but details of how it gets there are not specified. Right?
If you have your three ball sitting in the jaws of a pocket, and I want to shoot my ten ball by it, you’re saying that it makes for a better game for me not just to call the ten in that corner, but to have to specify whether it happens to graze your three on the way in? Is that “luck” in your view if it does graze your three?
I’ve been playing bar pool since 1980. Does that count?
What is that? 25 years?
And Curt? You really should only speak for yourself. If Sam has something to say to me, he will. I don’t think you should speak for others, since that’s not your experience.
We? Are you afraid to confront me by yourself?
Yes, that’s because I posted that I didn’t know them or play by them.
You are upset because you think I wasn’t polite toward you. Why don’t you just say that and let Sam speak for himself?
Well then clearly I should feel that way, too! If only I could see things your way …
I’m sorry, what is the question?
I think this thread has pretty much run its course.
I’m sorry, what is the question?
I think this thread has pretty much run its course.
Clearly, it’s double post night. 
Why does it take so long for a page to load here? Is the server always backed up?
Marge, I’m curious about something.
Honorable people do not argue for SLOP credit. Presumably because luck is unseemly; it should be a game of skill. Thus you call the shot.
Yet, if all your balls are behind the line, and I accidentally scratch, you in effect get no turn. So I get the shot back. So I have just continued my turn due to luck, which is dishonorable.
Shouldn’t I be compelled to allow you to play ball in hand? Why is luck bad for SLOP but good for scratches? If I do either, the luck would be helping the same person: me.
What’s the distinction between the two? It seems to me to be a logical inconsistency.
sigh
I never said that I thought luck was “unseemly.” I said that I preferred to play call shot, instead of call pocket but I have played hundreds of games call pocket, as well. I have no problems with either. I just prefer call shot.
What are you talking about? Of course I get a turn. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve made this shot. Countless times.
“Good for scratches”? Hu?
Are you under the impression that we’re having some kind of fight here?
Try not to take someone else’s rule preferences so personally.
I will, if you try not to act like a pompous ass.
Marge, that was uncalled for. You’re the only one here trying to make this personal. I’m not sure why - we’re talking about pool here, not foreign policy.