A friend and I are having a debate over whether Popeye should be considered a “superhero” or not.
His take is that a superhero is any fictional character who fights epic battles and has powers that would clearly be impossible in real life.
My definition is a bit more narrow: I think a superhero needs at least the following to qualify:
[ul]
[li]Superpowers (must be able to do things no normal human being could do)[/li][li]A costume[/li][li]A secret identity[/li][li]An impressive-sounding name[/li][/ul]
(A secret lair, a sidekick and a range of catch-phrases are nice, but optional.)
Unfortunately, my definition would exclude some of my all-time favourite characters, like Swamp Thing, Batman and Sandman. His definition would include Popeye and most Catholic saints.
My question is: is there any really good, all-inclusive definition of a “superhero”?
By your definition, the Silver Surfer is not a superhero - no secret identity, no costume, and his name makes me think of an aged surfer dude in a Geritol commercial.
well, i dont believe he has super powers. All he does is eat his spinach. And i seem to believe their son (its name escapes me, something pea) eating the spinach in one episode and getting the powers.
So i would say his powers lie all on the spinach, which would be the same as a ‘super hero’ using a gun.
There are “Legendary Heroes”: Paul Bunyan, Mike Fink, Pecos Bill. They’re large than life, have extra powers or abilities, but DON’T have costumes/masks/secret IDs. They’re generally upbeat, settle things with their fists, and so on. They’re also deeply tied into their native country.
There are “Masked Avengers”: Zorro, The Scarlett Pimpernel, Lone Ranger NO Super powers, NO extra abilities (though they’re usually excellent at one weapon), no secret weapons.
There are “Pulp Heroes”: Somewhere between “Masked Avengers” and “Costumed Heroes”. The Shadow. Doc Savage. The Spider (Master of Men). They usually have low-levels of Super-powers/abilities. The only real difference between them and “Costumed Heroes” is the tone, and I can’t really put my finger on what the difference is. Batman goes here, by the way: he does stuff that un-superpeople couldn’t do (jump off 100 story buildings holding a thread, falling 40 stories and NOT getting his fingers sliced off or his arms ripped out of his socket, for one)
There are “Costumed Heroes”: Have a costume/mask/secret ID, but also have a single power/gimmick: Sandman-Knockout Gas Gun. Dr. Midnite: Sees in the dark and Blackout bombs. Batman is tricky. Liberty Belle: Gets a burst of extra adrenaline when the liberty bell is rung.
and
There are “Super Heroes”: Costume/Secret ID (usually) and a bagful of superpowers. The biggest difference between them and “Costumed Heroes” is the level and variety of powers. Superman, (not in his original appearance, but soon after) had a bunch of powers (flight, super speed, x-ray vision, etc) compared to Hourman (strong)
Characters like Silver Surfer don’t quite fit. Maybe another group is needed for “Cosmic” characters to lump Kirby’s New Gods, Silver Surfer, etc.
Anyway, I’ve always considered Popeye to be a Legendary Hero. If you’ve ever read the original strips, about half of what he did was travel around America, helping people on a very personal level (“widers and orfinks what doesn’t have th’ money ta eatks”). I can’t picture Popeye hanging around with Superman (yes, I’ve read the two issues of Superman that featured Pope<cough>“Capt’n Strong”) or Mr. Terrific, but I have no problem imagining Popeye hanging around Paul Bunyan or Pecos Bill.
(And if you haven’t read the original comics by Segar, http://www.budplant.com has at least a few volumes of a 10 volume set that reprints all Segar’s Popeye strips).
Not only that but he once got Bluto to eat the spinach so that he could beat Popeye up and get into the hospitol with Olive.
And I believe Olive herself also ate the Spinach once to save him.
I’d give the idea of him being a super-hero a thumbs down since there appears to be no physical difference between any of the characters in the show. In short anybody on the show could go the supermarket buy a couple cans of spinach and be just like him, why they don’t I’ll never know.
It’s all a matter of definition. Me, I don’t think he is.
This whole issue came up in court, of all places. Back in the late 1940’s DC comics took Fawcett Publications to court, saying that Captain Marvel (the guy who was boy reporter Billy Batston In Real Comic-Book Life but became the red-suited Captain Marvel when he said “Shazam!”) was an obvious rip-off of DC’s Superman. Fawcett trotted out Popeye as an earlier example of the same genre, claiming that Supes himself was a rip-off.
IIRC, Fawcett lost the suit anyway, and Captain Marvel was out of the comics until about 1970, when he was revived by – DC Comics! (Marvel comics had used the name “Captain Marvel” for their own Kree-bred superhero, though, so they had to call the comic “Shazam!”)
Note: The comic book CM is the source of “Shazam!” as an expression, so Gomer Pyle owes CM. Each letter of the word stands for a differenbt god that CM got his powers from.
CalMeacham–the Superman/Captain Marvel suit was settled out of court. The reason was not one of altruism; at the time of the settlement, super-hero comics were on the decline and Fawcett no longer wished to support a losing fight. In 1953, Fawcett Publications sold the rights to its remaining characters, and got out of comic book publishing. Ironically, DC comics leased the rights to the Captain Marvel character in 1973, but couldn’t use the “Captain Marvel” name because it was being used by Marvel Comics!
I dated a girl who worked with mentally impaired individuals. Sometimes, she’d have to go to a mental hospital for a meeting. Once there, it was sometimes hard to tell the patients from the doctors.
So, she’s in a room with several patients and several doctors when a nicely dressed guy comes up and strikes up a conversation. They chit-chat for a while and my ex is thinking “He seems pretty normal. He must be one of the doctors.”
About that time he turns to her and says “You know who I think the greatest person who ever lived was? Popeye.”
She quickly changed her original assessment of this fellow. She had a similar situation where a guy’s favorite person was The Incredible Hulk. She always had some interesting stories.
Ok, hijack over. Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.
1.) It may have been settled out of court, but IIRC it started in court, which is where the argument about Popeye was raised.
2.) If Fawcett sold all its comic book rights in 1953, then they changed their minds. They were publishing comics in the late 1950s and the 1960s. Among other things, they put out the Dennis the Menace comics.
3.) If you look at my post, I relate the story of the CD/Marvel “Captain Marvel” fiasco.
Dick Lupoff and Don Thompson say Popeye was a superhero in their seminal work on comicbook history, ALL IN COLOR FOR A DIME. Good enough for me. Arf, arf.
And I have several of the Fantagraphics reprints of the early Segar strips…that damn one-eyed sailor did some amazing stuff sans spinach. Didn’t the spinach schtick start in the animated shorts?
you’re right, of course, that it started there. It was a lawsuit, after all. I was merely making the point that the whole thing was dropped in the long run.
Here’s a bit of info from that most excellent of cartoon websites, Don Markestein’s Toonopedia (http://www.toonopedia.com/):
By 1953, however, all comic book sales, particularly those of the superheroes, had sunk to the point where Fawcett was ready to throw in the towel. They settled the still-running lawsuit with DC, agreeing never to publish the character again. They sold their remaining titles to Charlton Comics (Hoppy was renamed “Magic” Bunny) and retired from comic books. They returned in a very limited way four years later, taking over the comic book version of Dennis the Menace from Standard/Pines, but never again used any of their old characters.
I think we’ve reached an understanding. I’ve got no problem with your post.
Uke:
I believe you’re right, but I can’t recall my source – it might be Sagendorf’s book on Popeye. In the strips, Popeye’s strength was once attributed to his “Wiffle Hen”. For some reason, the Fleischer folks made the source of his strength spinach. In gratitude, there are now three Popeye statues around the US, all put up by spinach people (see http://www.roadsideamerica.com ). Once it hit the cartoons, it went back into the strip. The Fleischer cartoons also had a profound effect on Superman, too. Before the animators got involved, Superman couldn’t fly.
Sayyyyyyy — Fleischer put out cartoons of both Popeye and Superman. Could there be a connection?
Howcome nobody’s ever seen them together at the same time?
Is Popeye’s weird accent his native Kryptonian?
“I yam what I yam and that’s all what I yam. I’m Kal-el the Super–man! (toot toot)”
I think Fenris has the right idea by expanding the rather vague term “superhero” into subcategories.
However, bravo for Ukelele Ike for reminding me of “All In Color For A Dime”, in which the issue is, for my money, settled. If he ain’t, then there ain’t any.
Now, should we be considering the comic strip and animated incarnations separately? The original Thimble Theatre “Popeye” led a long and fantastic life through many improbable adventures, before the strip settled down to the gag strip it is today (or was, last time I looked).
The animated Popeye is clearly a different fellow. Possibly there is an Earth-1 and Earth-2 Popeye.
It’s quite possible that Popeye’s superhuman strength was due in part not only to the fabled can’o’spinach, but also to the instrumental version of the “Popeye Theme Song” that always played in the background whilst he was partaking of his green leafy energy source.
Evidence: When my younger brother and I were kids, we often got into fights (as brothers often do). I’m 14 months older and have always been heavier and more muscular than my brother. Therefore, little brother often found himself pinned, or in some type of brutal grip’o’death type wrestling hold.
Many was the time, when, in the confines of said pin, hold, embarrassing position, etc., “Bubba John” would mimic his hero Popeye by popping open and devouring an imaginary can’o’spinach while performing a “verbal instrumental” of the “Popeye Theme”.
da dadaladat da daaaa, da dadaladat da daaaa, da dadala dadala dadala dadala dadaladat da daaaaaa.
These actions nearly always had the same result. I’d start laughing so damned hard at his ridiculous Popeye schtick that I’d lose my concentration. Suddenly, “Bubba John” WAS Popeye . . . he’d gain a moment or two of superhuman strength and escape my evil clutches.
Maybe I’m idealistic, but I think a superhero would be one who goes through great lengths at personal risk to help others.
This would exclude Popeye since he really only helped Olive Oyl for a bit of poonanie, but include Batman, Capt. America (my personal fave), and so on and so forth.
As Fenris pointed out, this is the animated version of Popeye. The original comic version spent a lot of time and effort helping people other than Olive (the aforementioned “widers an’ orfinks” in particular). I agree with Fenris’s classification: Popeye belongs in a Legendary Hero subcategory of superhero.
A) Can’t stands Olive Oyl
B) hates orphinks and widders
C) is cruel to dum’ animikles
D) Has two eyes
E) is super-strong, unless he’s in th’ presensensk o’ spinach, in which case he becomes a weakling?
Or the Earth-S Popeye
A) Got his powers from the SeaHag?
B) Doesn’t actually eat spinach, but has to say ONE! MAGIC! WORD! : SPINACH! (Sampson,Pele,Ibis, Nox, Achilles, Ceres, Hercules)
Or the Earth-Vertigo Popeye who’s
A) A troubled veteran who, in an unnamed conflict, fragged his CPO.
B) Jumped ship and learned how to gain demonic stregnth from injecting into his eyeball (hence “Popeye”) the extract of a mystic spinach-like herb (grown only on the East bank of the Lake of Fire!)
C) Now reformed, but regrets his dark past.
D) Engages in tantric sex with the Post-Feminist Olyve Oyl, who’s an avitar of the Earth-Goddess Gaia.
I’d say that’s the definition of a hero, but not necessarily a superhero.
I think that a superhero should be defined as a hero with superhuman abilities or extreme levels of skill. The latter condition would encompass people such as Batman and his Bat-sidekicks, Hawkeye, the Black Widow, Captain America, the various Green Arrows, Speedy/Arsenal, the Black Canary sans sonic scream, the current Blue Beetle, Brainiac Five, Wildcat, the Guardian and the Golden Age Atom. The Blackhawks would arguably fall into this category too, although I think it’s debatable if their skill levels qualify as “extreme.”
As a counter-argument, Sherlock Holmes and James Bond would count as “extremely skilled,” yet I would hesitate to call them “superheroes.” Ditto for Tarzan, the Lone Ranger and Tonto.
Also, there are several characters who are normally called “superheroes,” yet who don’t have any extreme abilities of their own. These characters are typically skilled, but not extremely so, and rely largely on specialized weaponry. The Phantom Lady falls under this category. Tony “Iron Man” Stark has extreme technological skills, but his pal Jim Rhodes wasn’t, and Jim served as Iron Man for a period. The same argument could extend to various other armored heroes.
I think it’s more likely that Superman was oinspired by Wylie’s creation.
Superman is also arguably a rip-off of Doc Savage, the Man of Bronze. Doc Savage has almost inhuman strength and intellect, and he had his own Fortress of Solitude (sound familiar?). Once again though, I think that Savage was more of an inspiration than a rip-off victim.