Popular vote Vs. Electoral college

I am a 48 year old white,male, middle class voter.
I usually vote Democrat but not always, because I don’t always agree with Democratic politics.

This will be my eighth Presidential “election” that I have been able to vote in.
I like to think that I am an independent, democratic , libertarian or maybe even a swing voter as it were.

It amazes me that more people don’t demand a popular voting system. The electoral college system has never seemed “fair” to me.

I have some conservative beliefs and some arguably liberal beliefs.

I hate to be pigeon-holed.

So, I guess to make a long post even longer, my question(s) is this:
Do you prefer a popular voting system or the current electoral college system or another system from another galaxy?
I realize I am not the most articulate poster here, by a long shot. I’d love to hear your opinions.

As a newbie I hope this is in the proper venue. Mods feel free to move this post.

Cheers

I’m not sure I think the electoral college is the BEST system, but in our Federal democracy I think it is better than a straight popular vote. The President isn’t supposed to be elected in a “fair” manner, he’s supposed to be elected in a Federal manner that requires him to gain the support of a majority of the states which make up this country.

I definitely prefer that over a straight popular vote. This isn’t a purely democratic form of election, it was quite intentionally not intended to be a purely democratic form of election.

I think that a couple of facts in favor of the electoral college that is often overlooked is that it usually results in the winner of the popular vote getting elected and it has produced a remarkably stable political system. I think because Americans are so used to stability in their political system, that they don’t always appreciate how important it is to the pursuit of many of their personal goals.

This election has brought out more interest than any before.

Martin Hyde

I have read and understand the arguments for our electoral system. I also realize that Bush Jr. was the only President to be elected without a popular majority since Abe Lincoln.

That is what bugs me I guess.

The electoral system we have in place discourages and in fact prevents a third party candidate (ie.Paul) from any realistic chance of winning.

I am undecided at this point.

I’d love to see an Obama- Edwards ticket. I’d vote for that in a second.

If Hillary gets the Democratic nod, she’d get my vote over Romney or Huckabee but I’d vote for McCain over her.

I find it hard to believe that I am the only one in a quandary over our limited choices.

It is time for a change.

Actually this isn’t true, many Presidents have won without a popular majority (and in any system with multiple realistic candidates it would almost never occur that a single one of them wins a majority of the popular votes.)

For example:

1996 Bill Clinton won with 49% of the vote
1992 Bill Clinton won with 43% of the vote
1968 Richard Nixon won with 43% of the vote
1960 JFK won with 49.7% of the vote

I could go on but there’s really no point, suffice to say many, many Presidents have been elected without a majority of the popular vote (pretty much any third part candidate getting more than 4-5% of the vote all but guarantees the winner won’t have a majority.)

Now, Bush was the first President in over 100 years who had a lower popular vote total than another candidate and still won the Presidency. The other incidents of this happening:

1888: Benjamin Harrison (5,443,892 votes) defeats Grover Cleveland (5,534,488)
1876: Rutherford Hayes (4,034,311) defeats Samuel Tilden (4,288,546)
1824: John Q. Adams (113,122) defeats Andrew Jackson (151,271)*

*In 1824 the campaigns were very, very different. The popular vote was not even recorded in many states, candidates won with 90% majorities in many of the states the won, it was a campaign where candidates fought very targeted battles state-by-state, the idea of a “national” campaign was somewhat unrealized at this time. So you had candidates who would typically win huge in a few States where they were uncontested by their opponent and where many of the voters wouldn’t even know much/anything about the other candidate. Meanwhile the battleground states where hotbeds of campaign activity.

Ron Paul is a Republican candidate for President, not part of any “third” party, the GOP is one of the “two big” parties in this country.

I have no problem with a system that discourages third party candidates. Why is a third party candidate better? Only having two candidates and two major parties is one way to guarantee compromise.

What happens in systems with say, proportional representation in the legislature, where the head of government is chosen based on how many seats a given party has in the legislature? Well, for example in a system where there are many viable parties, you have a fragmented legislature. So what happens? All those little parties and all those unique-like-a-flower candidates get together and form a coalition, essentially compromising. Their ideals get shifted to meet what is acceptable to everyone else in the coalition.

In America, we have two “big tent” parties where very much the same thing happens, in fact because of our separation of powers we actually have a lot more give-and-take between even the two parties than most people actually realize. A lot of governing at the Federal level isn’t nearly sexy enough to get popular media attention and compromise between Democrats and Republicans is quite common.

Again, why? If there are tons of parties it simply means you’ll see coalitions being formed, diluting the individuality of all those individual parties. I’m not saying say, Germany’s system is a bad system. With all those parties with seats in the Bundestag, you do have many options. But, a lot of those little parties are only going to have power by forming coalitions, which means they have to dilute their views and make compromises. This all happens in the U.S. system, but it happens within the two parties (in fact you see this on very prominent display during the primaries, as you have candidates from different “segments” of the party.) Sure, voters don’t get the “window dressing” of a lot of little-unique-as-a-flower candidates, but functionally a two party system isn’t a whole lot different. We just compromise in different ways, but most political systems involve a ton of compromise between differing ideas–at least democratic political systems.

I agree in principle with eliminating the electoral college, but changing to a popular vote won’t open up the two-party system. You’ll have a popular election but split between the two major parties. At no point in the past 140 years would it yield a third-party president.

What would help is to change the single-vote pattern of voting to some sort of preference voting. That way, people could vote their conscience but at the same time not dminish (too greatly) the chances of the mainstream candidate. That method would prove how much support there is for the more fringe parties, encouraging those who support it to support it more once they are proven viable (in some cases, in other cases they would remain obscure and fringe.)

Agreed. Just making the presidential vote a popular vote would not make the two-party system go away. Third party candidates would fair no better than they do now: they would not win.

I would hate to be in a three- or four- or many-party country. The results in countries with such systems makes me cringe.

It all depends on your perspective. I’m a strong supporter of Federalism, so I tend to support things that support Federalism. The Electoral College is one of those things. If you don’t support Federalism, then you shouldn’t support the electoral college.

How do you feel about the Senate? That’s even more “unfair”.

But this makes no sense. Are you complaining that Perot can get 10% of the popular vote, but get no electoral votes? But so what?

There’s only one position up for a vote: president (with the vp attached, remora-like). Only one candidate can win. It doesn’t matter how many parties there are, only one candidate can win.

In order for a third party candidate to win, they’d need to–get this–win more votes than the other guys. 10% of the vote doesn’t mean a thing, because you’ve still lost.

The only way to make third parties viable is to scrap district based winner take all representatives, and scrap the presidency. That way if a party gets 10% of the vote, they take 10% of the seats in Congress.

But as long as you have a system where you have seats where the person who gets the highest number of votes wins the seat, then third parties aren’t viable. That isn’t to say that the two parties have to be the Republican party and the Democratic party, just that a long list of candidates from third parties who also lost along with the losing major party candidate doesn’t mean a thing, because the winning candidate wins and everyone who wasn’t the winning candidate loses.

This isn’t the consequence of the electoral college, it’s a consequence of having contests with one winner and everyone else losing. Since there’s only one presidency, this will always be a feature of the presidency unless we do away with the presidency.

Not quite. Jesse Ventura won as governor, by winning the popular vote in MN. Lieberman won as an independent by winning the popular vote for the Senate in CT. There are numerous other examples.

I think a popular voting system would make it a bit easier for 3rd party candidates, but not much easier. You wouldn’t have to appeal to as broad a demographic as you do in the system we have now.

Only reason why some people bitch about the current system is because their candidate didn’t win…

“OMG I lost! Well keep counting until I win, dammit!”

Anyone else recall the election in Washington with Christine Gregoire and Ron Sims in 2004?

It was actually Gregoire and Dino Rossi but you are correct, it was a fiasco.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/227307_judgerules06ww.html

Ah yes thank you for the correction.

:slight_smile:

I understand that the current system was designed the way it was, on purpose. But I disagree with it on principle.

I am very strongly in favor of moving to a direct, popular vote. Failing that, I also see benefits in approval voting.

You asked. :slight_smile:

It’s funny - when I was in my teens, I told myself I wouldn’t bother to vote because, on top of everything else, the electoral college made sure my vote didn’t actually count. But I did vote in 2000, when I was 18- and lo and behold, everybody got a big reminder that their votes actually DON’T count, strictly speaking, and it’s all about the electoral college. I got a big reminder that I was right, which kind of sucked. So I still think the electoral college should be abolished.

Having grown up in a sparsely populated, remote state I can tell you that the electoral college is a very good thing for national unity.
My home state is pretty powerless in national elections. Political candidates don’t even stop or advertise there. It is ‘fly over country’. The people tend to feel ignored and disconnected.

You remove the electoral college, and their little power becomes zero. Over generations, they will not feel like there live in the same country and eventually they will want to go their own way.

The 2 senate seats per state is the most powerful way to keep the country united with the small states. The electoral college is another.

I would also argue against the abolition of the electoral college. It ensures that a broad coalition is necessary to win the general election. A simple plurality vote does not do this. It requires that the candidates satisfy the median voter in each state, which is a far cry from the median US voter.

I don’t see why the difference between “little power” and “zero” is a big plus for national unity. It might take time, but if candidates ignored the small states, eventually a rival would come in to take advantage of that apathy. Even with the electoral college, there are large cities and small towns everywhere, and candidates focus more on the places with larger numbers of people.

How is not appealing to a broad demographic a good thing? :smack:

Another reason for the electoral college is that it buffers big states like California, Texas, and New York from being able to strong-arm an election, allowing states like New Mexico and Wyoming to have a say.

Upon Preview: What BlinkingDuck said.

But by “viable”, I mean a party that routinely gets a few seats in congress, a few governorships, and controls a few state houses. So instead of a 50-50 Dem/Rep split, a 45/45/10 Dem/Rep/X split in congress. If Party X has the support of 10% of the voters, one might expect that something like 10% of the elected offcials would be Party X. But with winner take all, Party X will almost never win any offices.

If the electorate is 40% Rep, 40% Dem and 20% X, then the Reps will take about half the seats, the Dems will take half the seats, and Party X will take none.

And for the presidency, you have to take the plurality. If only 10% of the voters vote for you, you’re not going to win.

In fact, the electoral college makes it MORE likely that third party candidates could win, or at least regional party candidates. A candidate that gets 0% of the vote in one region but 51% in another region can beat a candidate that gets 100% in one region and 49% in the second region.

Is the point to design a voting system where a candidate who gets a minority of the votes wins? Or is the point to design a voting system where the candidate who gets the largest number of votes wins? If a third party candidate got more votes than the Republican or Democratic candidates, then the third party candidate would win. What’s unfair about that? And if a third party is popular enough to win lots of races, then they’re not a third party any more.