Poser Wiccans piss me off

[Angel_of_the_Lord]

Heh. I’m going to give answering this a whirl. Wish me luck!

*Originally posted by Fenris *
My (limited) understanding of The Rede is that it’s not limited to spells. It should extend to one’s actions everywhere, not just in magic, right?

This is the interpretiation that I use, as well as every other Wiccan/Pagan I’ve met who has held this rule. For the purposes of answering this question, I’m going to stick to the “Harm None” part of things. The rule of three isn’t something I necessarily believe in 100%, so I’m not even going to go there.

How do you define “harm”? How much “for his/her own good” type stuff is allowed?

We pretty much define “harm” in the same way that you do, Fenris. I mean, I consider myself a moral person. I conduct myself in a moral fashion; this has nothing to do with my religion. I would do so if I were a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Atheist, or what-have-you. The difference is that I, as well as other Wiccan/Pagan types, carry this morality over into the magical/spiritual realm.

Wicca/Paganism is different from other religions in that there really is no codified, universally accepted morality. There is no Leviticus of Wicca. There is no Deuteronomy of Drudism. What is “good” and what is “bad” is generally left up to the individual. There are, of course, societal standards and basic common sense to be dealt with of course.

As far as magic goes…the standard that I’m familiar with is thus: do not interfere with others’ lives. Don’t do magic for them unless they have given you their specific permission. And don’t try to infringe upon their free will.

for just a sec pretend that you had a Klansman and let’s also assume that you had the ability to cast a spell that actually changed his skin color to black…(snip, scroll up if you want specifics)…Acceptible or not?

AFAIAC…not acceptable. It would be poetic justice, and in a heated moment, I might do it, because I can be really rash when it comes to stuff like that. But it wouldn’t be acceptable. There are other ways which would probably be more effective in teaching him, ways which wouldn’t involve magic. Also, as part of my religion, I respect nature greatly, and don’t think that it should be tampered with lightly. Doing so to help cure people, that’s fine by me. And I’m extremely for scientific research in just about every area that I can think of at the moment. But changing someone’s ethnicity, messing with what nature has given us, just to prove a point that can be demonstrated in other ways…that’s wrong in my book.

**How 'bout Matt saying in another thread that
“Deliberately shocking people or making them uncomfortable is a reasonably effective way of persuading them to forgo unethical behaviour. Several forms of this constitute an important portion of democratic discourse.”

Deliberately shocking people causes harm (discomfort) to those shocked as the shocked people define it. Certainly not vast harm (depending on the shock) in most circumstances and, as Matt said, it may do them some good. But they didn’t consent to it and probably wouldn’t.

In this case, who defines harm? The “shockee”, the “shocker” or some external third party? Do you believe in an ‘objective’ definition of harm or a subjective one?**

That’s a difficult question…but I think, again, that it falls to a question of personal ethics. Does the good outweigh the bad? I don’t necesarily consider shocking people to be inherently harmful…not desireable, sure, but not harmful by any means. But I know that my moral compass is at times skewed, especially towards the politcal/social end of things.

In cases like this, there is, I believe, an inherent right and wrong; a side which is more right than the other, if not totally right. I might not know which is which, but I believe that, if I’m wrong, I’ll catch it in the end, whether in the form of a lesson or whatnot. I think that the rule of three–yeah, I’m gonna bring it up–is sort of a metaphor or whatever for that. If I do wrong, sooner or later, I’m gonna find out why I was wrong. Learning this will make me a better, more ethical person.

Of coure, YMMV

[MandaJo]

Matt said:

Most of the time, this is a breeze. The good thing about ethics is that most of the time, it is very easy to know the ethical thing. It is easier to push a little old lady into traffic than it is to go around her, but 99% of us don’t need a rule against murder, fear of punishment, etc., etc., to know that we oughtn’t to. We don’t even consider the thing. We simply step aside. Ethics are largely a matter of simple, everyday responsibility.

I don’t know if I can agree with this. A good portion of us believe that cutting the clitoris out of a thirteen year old is a good thing to do; for the majority of human history, the majority of people understood that slavery was a simple fact of life; A hundred years ago you would have had trouble convinceing many good, honest moral people that the term “marital rape” wasn’t an oxymoron. Ethics don’t seem engrained at all to me.

I’m not suggesting that the way to overcome this is by attempting to address every possible situation and make a ruling. But I do think that an ethical philosophy needs broad guidelines–axioms, if you will–as a starting point for dealing with situations as they arise, and I don’t think that “Whatever, as long as nobody gets hurt” is sufficient. (though it is certainly a good starting point). However, Matt, your axiom does not appear to be the rede, really but ralther this idea of

The basis of this belief could be that that since everyone and everything is an incarnation of Deity, since I venerate that deity I am both free to act how I wish and enjoined to consider the effects of my actions on other people and things. However, this could be thought of as a first principle that I don’t necessarily need to go all the way back to every time there’s an ethical decision at hand.)

This is not the Rede: this is quite a bit more complex and seems like a principle that could be applied to a variety of different situations.

I’ve remarked before that Paganism really need a good moral philosopher. I don’t mean someone to appear and decide what is right for Pagans everywhere, but someone who would take the basic paradigms of Pagan (I am using Pagan over Wicca here as it is the broader term, I think) thought and begin the formal discussion about how those principles ought to play out in one’s actions.

[Deiket]

Ok, I just wanted to throw my opinion in with the mix. First, a little about myself.
I’m 17 and <gasp> a Witch. I am not one of said stupid teenagers who thought this was just “totally awesome, dude” and a way to piss off my parents.
I’ve been studying different religions from all over the worl since I was thirteen and was forced by my Jewish parents to go through my Bat Mitzvah. I’ve closely examined Wicca and come to the conclusion that it had everything I believed was right.

Now, I didn’t instantly go out, by some candles and silver and declare myself “Witchified” (friend’s term, I’ll get to HER in a minute). I studied, I worked, and I met friends at a summer camp one year who taught me and helped me along. So I take offence when someone claims that anyone under 18 is only out for the thrill value. I understand, I know those people but do NOT make that assumption, if you please.

Now, this friend. She is… how do I say… an odious little excuse for a human being, one who could only be equivocated with the worst kind of vermin. She’s just a bad person. To top of my distict and prominent dislike for said girl, she claims to be Wiccan. I have a specialitly when it comes to healing powers and that kind of thing. Spirit has blessed me many times with the healing of others who I love. SHE claims to have a speciality in curses, hexes, black magic, and the Evil Eye. She is the kind who make people see Witches as the wart-nosed evil cackling demons of Halloween. This pisses me off.

I was nearly HANGED once, by a group of peers, because they saw this as being evil and satanic.

I know there are people like that for every religion, ones who just spout off anything that comes to their tiny little media-driving lives, and it all annoys me. But this is MY faith and it just pissed me off even more.

Just my two cents.

[matt_mcl]

Hanged? Yeesh! Where do you live?

Also, please don’t take any of this as being against young Wiccans in general. Indeed, I’m 20, and I began my path to Wicca when I was 16.

[jab1]

People who think magic (or “magick”) is real piss me off. IOW, ignorance pisses me off. We’re never going to truly progress as a species as long as silly beliefs are popular.

[jab1]

*Originally posted by Angel of the Lord *
**

Originally posted by MGibson

Which is different then a grown person casting protection spells in what way?

To put it quite simply, Marc? Intent.

The intent of a hex is to cause harm–whether it be physical, emotional, or spiritual–to another being.**

<Snipped a lot of goofy gibberish>

**A protection spell, on the other hand, harms no one. It just attempts to keep you safe.

**<Snipped more goofy gibberish>

That is NOT what MGibson was asking. He is an atheist (as am I). He was asking how can any so-called “magick spell” can be any more real (or less fake) than any other (as am I). He and I both believe that magic (with or without the “k”) does not exist. Period.

If “magick” exists, why don’t any of you try to collect James Randi’s $1,000,000 prize he is offering for hard evidence of the supernatural? If you don’t need the money, give it to the charity of your choice.

Put up or shut up.

[The_Tim]

I made that clarification a bit earlier, without the insults. AoL (sweet jesus! I just realized my instinctive abreviation of Angel of the Lord’s name. Clear proof that I have special insight into the raw evil that he must represent ;)) decided to ignore that possibility. Most likely in an effort to be civil.

Other than that I’ve got to add that living in Boulder “New Agers” of all sorts make me twitch. The section for the sheer crap on various mystic/psychic/etc. beliefs in Borders is hideously over grown and includes the teen witch book. Between that and the internet spell book I must agree that anyone who basis their faith on this would irritating. More so if they claimed to be of the same faith as you.

[seawitch]

That was a long, ugly road we went down last time the conversation took this turn. Can we please, please not go there again?

[seawitch]

I had meant to address my last post to Jab1. Clearly, I have been hexed. [sub]Or else I made a mistake. Crap.[sub]

[Menocchio]

Oh, fuck, this again.

And this was becoming such an interesting discourse on what happens when a non-mainstream religion is popularized. I was also enjoying the debate over whether a religion that prodes itself on being non-dogmatic can develop a coherent and workable moral code.

This isn’t about magic. Wicca is not about magic. I have yet to meet a Pagan who claimed to be able to circumvent the laws of physics. They do however use what seems to me to be a ritualized form of prayer to commune with what they see to be divine and often attempt to bend fate in their favor. So what? Most theistic religions fo the same. Unless they, for example, replace medicine for a healing ritual (and even then, if the patient is a consenting, informed, and competent adult), what’s the harm?

Wiccans are probably reluctant to flat out admit that magic can’t cause changes in the physical universe just as I’m reluctant to admit that God can’t help me part Lake Ontario. He can, I believe, but he probably won’t, so in relaity the atheist and I both rent a boat. The relative power of our supernatural forces is not teh point of the religious. We like what our tradition have to say about our relation to the universe, and how to be a moral person in it.

Oh, and as a someone who doesn’t believe in the efficacy of Wiccan magic, I’d be concerned if someone was hexing me, because it showed the have the intent to harm me, and would likely do so in a real manner if the oppurtunity presented itself. Likewise, someone who sincerely cast a protection spell on me is concerned for my well-being, and would likely try to help me in a mundane manner if they were able and the need arose.

[jab1]

*Originally posted by Menocchio *
I have yet to meet a Pagan who claimed to be able to circumvent the laws of physics. They do however use what seems to me to be a ritualized form of prayer to commune with what they see to be divine and often attempt to bend fate in their favor.

Isn’t an attempt to “bend fate in their favor” an attempt to circumvent the laws of physics? It sounds like an attempt to affect probability. Probability works in defined, predictable ways and you can’t influence it with rituals or prayers.

Look, guys, I really don’t want to re-ignite old fights, but I simply cannot stand by and permit extraordinary claims go unchallenged. (Cecil wouldn’t do that; why should I?)

The Tim: I saw AotL’s post on Page Two and I looked so see if MGibson had responded. He hadn’t, so I incorrectly concluded that no one had responded and fired off my post. It’s difficult for me to control my impulses.

Wait’ll you see the thread I’m gonna start on the Mormons’ Book of Abraham…

[The_Tim]

Funny story. My friend used to work in It’s Your Move, a game store in the mall. One day after he gets off of work he goes to his car and gets in not noticing anything wrong. Half way home he realizes there is something weird on the passanger side seat. It’s a collection of bones, feathers and other stereotypically hexy things. Deciding it was neat he put it on his wall, it is rather neat. He’s been doing fine. No further obvious attempts to do him harm.

[Menocchio]

*Originally posted by jab1 *
Isn’t an attempt to “bend fate in their favor” an attempt to circumvent the laws of physics? It sounds like an attempt to affect probability. Probability works in defined, predictable ways and you can’t influence it with rituals or prayers.

So you say. Many religions disagree. They can’t prove that their prayers and rituals don’t occasional cause things to go their way, and very often the doubter can’t prove that they didn’t work.

Problems only occur when these rituals are passed off to be more than they are, or when they are used as a total alternative to mundane means.

In any event, Wicca isn’t about “Hey, look at what I can do with my wand and this pentacle!” (that’s what the OP was partially ranting against, if I’m not mistaken), any more than Daoism is about learning to kick ass with Kung Fu. You’re painting with too broad a brush, and catching people who don’t think they have way-cool Harry Potter powers.

[Odesio]

*Originally posted by jab1 *
**
The Tim: I saw AotL’s post on Page Two and I looked so see if MGibson had responded. He hadn’t, so I incorrectly concluded that no one had responded and fired off my post. It’s difficult for me to control my impulses.

**

I didn’t want to take it any further because I really didn’t need to start another fight. Frankly I think those who put a lot of faith in their magic are rather silly. But then I feel that they’re not really any different then those who choose to believe that faith can move mountains.

Marc

[Fionn]

*Originally posted by jab1 *
**Isn’t an attempt to “bend fate in their favor” an attempt to circumvent the laws of physics? It sounds like an attempt to affect probability. Probability works in defined, predictable ways and you can’t influence it with rituals or prayers. **

I’ve always wondered if there was a person on earth who never tried to influence probability. Someone who has never said “I wish it would stop raining” or “I hope I can get a good spot in the parking lot” or “Please, please, please, God, let my runaway cat come back safely.” I know these won’t help my will become reality, but I say them nonetheless. Since Jab1 brushes such thinking aside, I’ll assume he’s the one person who’s never wished for anything.

**Look, guys, I really don’t want to re-ignite old fights…
**

Overcoming your reluctance must have been a Herculean task. :rolleyes:

[Helen_s_Eidolon]

Originally posted by jab1 Isn’t an attempt to “bend fate in their favor” an attempt to circumvent the laws of physics? It sounds like an attempt to affect probability. Probability works in defined, predictable ways and you can’t influence it with rituals or prayers.

Fine, so you’ve got a problem with religion in general, not Wiccan magick.

[Beardedcrow]

Using a religious symbol as a fashion statement is annoying, but it is JUST fashion. Madonna did it with big, gaudy crucifixes, now “poser witches” do it with pentagrams and black lipstick. Ten, fifteen years later, most of the teenagers who copied Madonna are probably still wearing crosses, tiny unobtrusive ones. Maybe, “if the gods will it and the creek don’t rise”, most of these poser witches of today will become the real witches of tomorrow. Probably wearing tiny, unobtrusive pentagrams, if at all.

[jab1]

*Originally posted by Ballybay *
I’ve always wondered if there was a person on earth who never tried to influence probability. Someone who has never said “I wish it would stop raining” or “I hope I can get a good spot in the parking lot” or “Please, please, please, God, let my runaway cat come back safely.” I know these won’t help my will become reality, but I say them nonetheless.

Saturday. I was saying, “I wish my diarrhea would go away.” But it was the Pepto-Bismol that did it, not my wishing.

Wishing that my diarrhea would go away was NOT my trying to influence probability, it was just bitchin’, moanin’, and complainin’. It’s an attempt to relieve stress.

[SisterCoyote]

jab, it’s very often the same for those who pray, or meditate, or cast spells, or whatever when they say, “I wish x would happen” or “I hope y doesn’t happen” or whatever. The difference? In the case of those who are praying/meditating/spellcasting the complaint is directed.

I for one don’t believe my “spellcasting” (usually ritual, always in a group - I feel silly practicing alone) has any effect on the outer world. Nor do I expect it to.

What I expect it to have an effect on, and what in my experience it does have an effect on, is me. My state of mind, my awareness of the divinity that I find in and around myself, my awareness of and sensitivity to the people around me (and no, by that I don’t mean any sort of psychic sensitivity - I mean being aware of what’s on their minds, what they’re troubled/happy about, how I might be able to help them…or how they might be able to help me).

I don’t know if this is what prayer is like for Christian or Jewish folk, because I never really prayed as a Christian, and I left that behind many years ago. I’m also sure that other Wiccans (of which I am not one) and pagan-types will tell you that their experience of spellcraft is different.

I expect it is. We’re all different. That’s part of the joy of being human.

[jab1]

Okay, THAT I find reasonable.