I would like to commend you for a clear explanation of the title change (without which previous comments would be hard to understand). I wish this approach were SDMB policy.
I think some of the tips are patronizing,but in my experience an awful lot of women do not in fact, trust their gut feelings and are willing to leave a group social situation with someone they kind-of-sort-of know because he’s an acquaintance of her friend
because they don’t want to be thought of as rude, racist, overly paranoid etc.
Look at this thread . The woman was apparently frightened because she was seemingly being followed , but some people thought it was racist, sexist, an overrreaction …
I agree, but I don’t think that signs in the bathroom are the way to address the problem that we were raised to be “nice” and “trusting” and not say “no” when confronted with a guy who “seems” creepy.
I think the way to address this is to stand up for our daughters when they are told in third grade (as my daughter was) that all their classmates are their “friends” and need to be treated nicely. I think I took off a teacher and an administrators head for setting up a room full of girls for future abuse. (My daughter knows the difference between being “nice” and being “civil” - Nice is ignoring the feeling and getting in the car anyway - civil is lying and saying “that was a text from my sister, I have to go now” rather than saying “um, you are a creeper.” I’m having a problem having her actually being civil, she goes straight for “you’re a creeper” - which is better from a safety standpoint than being nice - but not really good.)
I’m not necessarily saying that signs in the bathroom are the way- I just don’t think those tips are patronizing.
I think even trust your gut is patronizing (by the way - we need a new word for that - because its WORSE when I get ‘don’t get raped’ tips from women - I dislike being patronized by men - isn’t she cute, she can’t take care of herself - I HATE it from women.) Because it isn’t that women haven’t heard it before, its that they’ve been indoctrinated with a conflicting instruction - be nice.
What jumps out at me about the poster is not victim blaming, but rather the lazy thinking that it is based on.
“Try to avoid secluded areas” implies that many if not most rapes are caused by the stereotypical rapist who ambushes women in alleyways after dark. Since women are cautioned from birth against being anywhere by themselves at night, in spaces where bad things can happen, I have to wonder why they think women need to be told this some more. Is there really an epidemic of women being assaulted in “secluded areas”, or is this another patronizing bromide being thoughtlessly foisted on the girls to remind them of what they know already?
“Socialize only with people who share your values”. That’s a real interesting one. Let us, for a minute, forget that determining the actual values of the people in one’s social circle is so difficult that people married for several years often can’t manage it. Logistics aside, are we really telling women that they should only hang out out with people who believe in the same things they believe in? What kind of values are we talking about? The only value that is relevant here is whether women have a right to say no to sex and have that right respected. So really,if we’re gonna keep it real, this tip should read “Socialize only with people who don’t engage in or encourage rape.”
For some reason though, the authors of this poster choose not to come and out say this. Probably because then people could see this crap for what it is.
I as hell wouldn’t be, not if I were on a military base. I wouldn’t want to talk to a “coordinator” if a crime has taken place and the guy who did it ran away or God forbid, is still in the vicinity and capable of hurting me some more.
What if the coordinator is the one who did it?
Then who do you turn to?
I don’t mind the poster but maybe there should be another one in the men’s restroom to remind them of things like:
- don’t go along with harassment/assault by other guys just because they are your friends or you don’t want to look weak
- if a woman says she’s not interested, move on
- if you see a woman being assaulted, intervene or call 911
- think about how your mother/daughter/sister would feel in that situation
I think we do a terrible job of teaching our young men how to act responsibly, with the whole “boys will be boys” things. We should have high expectations of both genders.
Has anyone ever actually left her drink unattended, had someone put a roofie into it, and then was raped? I don’t think it is common enough to waste the poster space to warn against it.
[QUOTE=boozilu]
I think we do a terrible job of teaching our young men how to act responsibly…
[/QUOTE]
It depends on what you mean by “we”. If by “we” you mean fathers who abandon their children, or mothers who get pregnant by men who then leave, then I agree, but not necessarily otherwise.
Regards,
Shodan
I didn’t like that one much, just because it’s stupid advice. No, trust your brain. “Women’s intuition” is bullshit and teaching females to rely on the first idea that pops into their head is an awful idea. I also think it’s a bit misogynist - “don’t try and use your brain, sweetie”.
I did find this a bit of a weird one. I didn’t interpret it exactly as you did, but it’s the same kind of generally bad advice as “trust your gut” that leads to a stagnant society of ignorant, unintelligent and credulous people.
I can’t say how common it is to have a drink spiked, but that advice is very common. Vaguely based on what I’ve heard over the years, I’d guess it’s a common enough problem to justify the inclusion of that advice. In fact, my guess is that it’s one of the most valuable pieces of advice there, along with not accepting drinks from strangers and having a plan for getting home.
I think even the “best” families can have an attitude that younger men “will be boys” - especially if you’re talking about, say, midwest through Texas families who prize their sons being jocks. The notion of “sowing oats” or “teen hijinks” or “blowing off steam” can run pretty deep and not necessarily draw a firm enough line about sexual misbehavior.
Taken further, I’d bet that there are an awful lot of kids who are the product of all-but date rape by a “nice” boy who later grew a degree and a suit and tie, or a profitable trade business - completely “respectable” types. Maybe a declining curve, beginning in the '60s or '70s, but not a negligible one. Are those parents going to instill a strong anti-harassment attitude or see it as “the way it is” or “just the way 18yo boys are”?
I couldn’t agree more. There is all kinds of education aimed at how women should protect themselves and pathetic little about how men should not assault women in the first place.
Actually, the poster is gender-neutral so I wouldn’t consider it “blaming the victim” at all. Do you know if the same poster hangs in men’s restrooms? If it doesn’t, it should because men can, and do, get raped too.
EVERY woman I’ve ever known personally who was in the military has told me, with no prompting whatsoever, that she was a victim of some kind of unwanted sexual advances, ranging from verbal harassment to forcible rape. I should add that this DOES NOT mean that all military men are harassers or rapists, not at all.
I’ve been seeing this meme lately, and I just can’t understand it.
You honestly think that the problem is that we don’t teach men to not rape women? Seriously?
The men who are out raping and assaulting women know that rape is not OK. They do it anyway. There are no men in prison right now because no one bothered to tell them that rape is bad.
An FYI for those of you who think the poster is juvenile: Not a small percentage of its target audience is composed of girls who are out on their own for the first time. It NEEDS to be phrased like this; you see things like this on college campuses too.
And yes, a woman on another board recently posted that when she attended her dorm’s safety class, she raised her hand during the Q&A and asked the instructor why they don’t just tell men that they shouldn’t rape women. The FEMALE instructor sputtered and had no answer to that, probably because she had never been asked that before! :smack:
It reminds me of a lecture we had on STDs when I was in college in the early 1990s, and the professor kept talking about the percentage of women who do (not) use condoms. I raised my hand and asked him, “On what part of a woman’s body does she wear a condom?” The classroom buzzed, and he had no answer for that! :dubious:
How many rapists or rapist sympathisers do you really think are going to have an epiphany just because you tell them rape is bad? I’m fairly certain they already know you think rape is bad, they just don’t care.
There are men who have been told “sometimes you have to push a woman a little” or “women don’t want you to think they are sluts, so always just back off a little and then come back harder” or “it’s never hurts to try, right?” or “if she REALLY means no, she’ll let you know” or “I always buy a girl a X, they don’t realize how much they are drinking”.
Honestly, I find it hard to believe that any women out there are getting raped because they didn’t know they should plan a way to get home, or not hang out and get shitfaced with people they think might be rapists, or walk off into secluded places with strangers. If it’s reasonable to put a poster up in the women’s bathroom telling them not to do these things, I think its’ reasonable to put a sign up in the men’s room saying “don’t get a woman drunk before you ask her to have sex with you” or “if she’s crying and lying there like a corpse, that means no, even if she doesn’t say it” or “if she says ‘I don’t think I want to do this’, stop and back off completely.”
If it’s condescending and stupid to say those things to a man, it’s condescending and stupid to tell a woman not to get a car with a drunk stranger.
I think in some ways it’s like shoplifting. People know it’s wrong to shoplift, but a lot of folks still do it because they don’t think it’s a big deal. Maybe all their buddies do it, and all their relatives and acquantainces. When offenders keep getting away with it with zero consequences, it can lull idiots into thinking it is bad in the same way that jaywalking or peeing in the pool is bad. Which is to say, not that bad at all.
So for this segment of the population, what might work is posters telling them sexual assault will not be tolerated and offenders will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I’m fairly certain such messaging would be more effective than “try to avoid secluded areas” but maybe that’s just me.