Posting from the end of my rope: I don't think I'm ever going to get a PhD.

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
21

I’m suddenly very happy that I opted out of the Masters/PhD route and just went for another undergrad degree instead!

Based on old memories of what various professors taught and the posters and such on their walls, perhaps someone at the University of Guelph could help you too? It’s a smallish school with some pretty good molecular/biochemical/cell biology department and an agricultural college. Take a short trip to Canada, talk to a few profs there, and go back to your lab with new ideas and more relaxed?

Good luck!

22

For what its worth, I heard the tale the other day of a guy who thirty some years ago was in your boat. Only without the baby. And various other details were different–especially the field in which he was pursuing his PhD. But he got it, and found a job despite a bad economy and worked there for thirty some years before retiring during a period of more or less voluntary layoffs. And now he’s a lovable senior citizen–it says so on his license plate holder.

But if you don’t have anything you can write up now (Mr. Lovable did, due to being a theoretical guy at that point in his life), and you decide to leave(ETA: or get shown the door), please, don’t let not earning a PhD make you think of yourself as a failure. You pursued a dream and it didn’t work out. There are lots of us in that boat.

23

I don’t have technical advice. One semester’s rotation in a molecular bio lab was enough for me; I much more preferred getting dirty in salt marshes. (Kerry Mullis, there’s a special hell waiting for you in a giant PCR machine, just because of the torture I went through those three months!) But I do have a general thing to say. If you’ve been in a PhD program for more than three years and haven’t thought at least once “Oh hell, I’m quitting this shit RIGHT FUCKING NOW!!” then you’re not doing it right. Someone told me that one day and I didn’t believe them. That is, not until I was screaming “Oh hell, I’m quitting this shit RIGHT FUCKING NOW!!”

One of my back-in-the-day fellow grad students used to sound just like you. I met him while I did my molecular bio rotation in his lab. He was working with plants as well, if I’m not mistaken. And he was stuck with two inadequate advisors, no real lab mates (I didn’t really count), and no real direction. He was also in his late 30s (I’m sure he really enjoyed my 20-something self fucking up the electrophoresis thingamabob every ten minutes). He was constantly depressed about experiments gone wrong and having no data. He was always warning me about the heartache that was awaiting me once I started my project. Guy was brilliant, but he was unlucky and I felt so bad for him. I didn’t want to turn out to be him. But sure enough, I eventually went through my low period as well, even with the best of resources.

Then one day I guess things worked out for him and he graduated. Somehow, some way, he did it. Saw him at an ESA meeting a few years ago and he was smiling and looking way younger and healthier.

I’m not going to say “things will work out for you too” because I have no way of knowing if that’s true. Perhaps your path in life is to be an ABD for awhile or forever; there’s a-plenty of them out there and they have jobs. You’ve made a living for yourself for the past four years, so it’s not like you’ve been sitting around picking your butt. You have plenty to put on a resume, just not the letters “PhD” after your name. But before giving up, step back for a moment. Go on a road trip and clear your brain. If you can’t afford that, take a week off and spend it laying down outside. Stare up at the sky or a nice tree canopy, if you can. This will recharge your right brain–the source of creativity and innovation (and if you’re scientifically inclined, your right brain is all juicy and vibrant anyway…it may just be blocked by the despair). You may discover a new angle to take, realize a mistake in what you’ve been doing, or be inspired to start an entirely different project.

Also consider if it’s not too late to change advisors and labs. Fuck all the stuff about the time and energy already invested. If you’re not enjoying the research, it’s not worth it. You’ve passed your prelims/comps, correct? Assuming they were general and not specific to your research, what’s stopping you from going back to field ecology? There are just as many career opportunities, if not more, in that field than there are in molecular biology. And you might actually be HAPPY.

I had low moments in grad school. Moments when I wanted to die, when I wanted others to die, when I wanted the whole WORLD to die. But I can honestly say I had more bright days than dark. If you can’t say that about grad school, then you’re not doing it right. If you hate molecular biology now, it’s not going to become suddenly more palatable once you graduate.

24

Ogre, man, I feel for ya, and don’t have anything concrete to offer here with academia; lots of good advise above, though. Try to find an experienced Prof to guide you.

I can imagine your frustration now, especially with a new baby. It must seem like a heavy load to carry, since you’re now thinking in terms of All Y’all as a family.

This may seem simple, and it is, but took me awhile to really get it: A Mississippi elder musican, Othar Turner, once was recounting how hard it was to learn to play the fife. He told the tale, and then said: “You know, a Fail ain’t nothin’ but a Try, nothin’ but a Try…” Yeah, perhaps learning to play an instrument doesn’t get to the heights of a PhD, but, say that outloud and roll it around your mind some. Good wisdom, really, from a man who lived into his 90’s as sharp as tack without much of any sanction by larger society.

Hopin’ it helps… words failin’… Hug to my Bro’, Ogre.

25

Ya gotta stay in school, Ogre. The football team has been using your gpa to keep three defensive linemen eligible.
:smiley:

26

I don’t know shit about molecular anything, but I do know quite a bit about motivation and self-starting and things like that, and you blow me away with your ability to self-motivate and commit to this. It makes me feel very lazy and small, if that makes you feel any better.

I’ve gotten a bunch of advice about running marathons from people. (I’m perpetually starting training for one, you know.) The one that sticks in my mind: a marathon has two halves. The first half is 20 miles and the last half is 6.2.

27

Ogre, could you ask the UGA plant department for a chance to visit again in the fall? I know right now many of their students (and perhaps faculty) are out in the field. Maybe they declined because they don’t have anybody to show you the ropes?

Also, I know UF has a good plant department. Maybe they have specialists in your area?

28

Wait, wait… did it fail, or did it give a different result from what you expected? Because those are two completely different animals.

Getting the expected result is just confirmation of what we already knew. Getting an UNexpected result is NEW INFORMATION. Finding new information is what research is about. Sometimes the new information is about the process itself, so? That’s publishable too.

29

I definitely had that point in my Ph.D. . . . . My only suggestion is to spend as much time holding your baby as possible. They’re like nature’s prozac, I swear.

30

Just in case you haven’t heard it enough: the wall you’ve hit? It’s normal, unfortunately.

I’m an ABD in German lit, so I’ve met lots of people in Ph.D. programs, both in the liberal arts and in other areas (I was involved in several committees and groups where I met people in other fields).

From what I can tell, every program had its own way of making people hit the wall. I had several close friends who were in the plant sciences and, for whatever reason, they seemed to have the worst experiences of all. So, in my limited experience, your experience is - unfortunately - par for the course. And, by the way, all of my friends actually finished their Ph.Ds. It generally took them longer than they wanted it to, but they got their degrees.

Hang in there.

31

I love that! It is so true.
Ogre, since you haven’t taken your quals yet, perhaps now would be a good time. You could get away from the bench for a couple of weeks and still feel like you were being productive. You’re going to have to do it eventually, you know. :wink:

ETA: thanks for the PDF. I’m going to have to add 260/230 to my checks. Looks like it will be quite useful.

32

This is actually really good advice. I really do think you need a break away from research, and if you are unwilling to take it in the form of a vacation, this would be a good alternative. I am actually a little surprised they didn’t make you take them earlier, as if you don’t pass your quals there really is no point in continuing to work on a research project. Of course all programs are different, so maybe in molecular biology at your school quals aren’t treated as that big of deal.

33

Yeah, that was before I was married, and in fact I generally didn’t have a girlfriend for most of those 12 years. It was kind of a miserable time for me, actually. But I got through it, and so can you!

34

So many responses!

Thanks, folks, for your support. I went home and grilled burgers with the wife last night. Had a beer or three, and sat out on the porch, listening to the frogs. It was nice. I can’t say that I feel much better about my prospects today, but I’m plugging away. I think I’ll take the advice and go ahead with my quals.

Those who have guessed that my advisor leaves something to be desired are correct. True, I’m just sort of in his lab, without being directly connected to his research, but the guy is really pissing me off. He is extremely hands-off, which is good in a way, but when I need guidance in some way, he’s simply not there for me. During the above-referenced meeting I had with him yesterday, he waxed accusatory and angry that I hadn’t somehow magically gotten all my stuff perfect. “Well, why in the world didn’t you…?” and “I can’t believe you didn’t do…” Well, fuck, you clown. I guess you’re right. It’s not like I’m a complete noob at this shit, and am trying to feel my way through it WITHOUT ANY EXPERIENCE AT ALL.

He hasn’t been helpful at all. One of my other committee members has been fantastic, which makes me wish I’d been in his lab this entire time, but that ship has sailed.

At this point, I’m like a mountain climber at 25,000 feet. There’s nothing pleasant about it, and the wind is picking up, and I can hardly think because I’m so tired. They might find my frozen corpse on a ledge somewhere, but I can’t come back down without summiting. I just can’t.

From the tone of the response, which was back in Spring, I just don’t think they’re that interested.

Yeah, I actually shot them a request yesterday.

The process failed to return any data. There was no “null hypothesis” result. It simply didn’t work.

You’re always helpful, and I sincerely appreciate you. :slight_smile:

If I thought it would help, I’d enroll at UA so I could help keep Marcel Dareus on the team. :slight_smile:

35

IANAPhD so have nothing concrete to add, but I sure as hell wish you luck as you put your head down and figure this out Ogre.

And remember: you clearly have already mastered biology; just look at you new son! ;):D:cool:

36

Just want to offer some support and to tell you to hang in there. The next time I’m in The Garage I’ll have one on your behalf.

37

Remember, there is no shame in failure. The only shame is in not trying, and I think you’ve tried plenty. If you feel that quitting is the right thing for you to do, then do it without reservations. Still, I have a hunch that this is one of the low points that a buncha PhDs above have written about, and that you’d be better off taking a break and then heading back to the grindstone/drawing-board. Hang in there!

38

Thanks again, guys. I have some good news to report: I have heard back from the UF people. They literally wrote the book on plant phylogenetics. They are probably the world authorities on the subject. They were exceptionally kind, and have invited me down to their lab to troubleshoot my procedure.

Daylight! Now I want to cry again, but out of relief!

39

AWESOME news!

40

Good news! Although plant-anything is out of my specialty, I had to take an honors writing class in their building, with their teachers. I left feeling that they had a good program, good teachers, and good facilities. I hope they help you!