Pity party on the occasion of ignominously leaving my doctoral program

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

I’m in a sort of odd mood right now, and may well regret this thread in the morning. Well, anyway, here goes…

As many of you know, I am a mathematician. Well, a math grad student. I have been in a doctoral program at a top school for seven years now. Unfortunately, I have also been chronically depressed for all that time as well (originating in some chronic medical issues I’ve had a hard time coping with for nine years now), and have had difficulty getting work done. Well, finally, the hammer has come down on me. Having been unable to actually sit down and write up my thesis, and having stretched the patience of my (very benevolent and very reasonable) advisor with excessive periods incommunicado and little to show for it for too long now, my advisor has let me know that he will no longer be able to supervise me, having better ways to spend his time (I have no ill feelings towards him; he is a big name who had in fact been emeritus when he took me on as a student, and I am tremendously grateful for the time he spent with me).

I also do not intend to drag things out by trying to seek another advisor while hanging on for another semester, and thus will quit the Ph.D. program and seek a job in industry somewhere (I have an undergrad background in CS, which I suppose is useful for this; indeed, I have an interview with Google scheduled, though they were under the impression I would be finishing my Ph.D. when I originally applied and went through the first two phone screens). But it is so embarrassing to have to admit to my parents and others that while I falsely claimed to be making good progress towards completing my dissertation all this time, I have really been floundering. [Also, to be aware that while I had good ideas which I was never able to properly write up, it is now, I worry, not going to be the case that anyone will ever take me seriously as a mathematician again. Even just to admit my failure here is embarrassing, though luckily you are all strangers.]. There is so much embarrassment I am dealing with. I just don’t know how to handle it right now. So, uh… Yeah.

I can’t really think straight right now. I guess I need advice (like how to apply for a job when you’re worried you can no longer honestly be given a good letter of recommendation), but I don’t know what advice anyone can give me. I am just filled with shame and adrenaline. I realize that if I had just been able to make myself do a little more work in the past, I’d be in a very different situation now, but… I didn’t. Argh.

2

You have all my sympathy.

I left a PhD programme a few years back. Depression, the suicide of my father and outright fuckwittery on the part of my supervisors (three supervisors in a two years, each one changing my thesis question and then demanding to know why I don’t have a year’s work on the new topic already is just the start). There are no good recommendations coming from them, either.

Out of the 20+ people in my programme at the same time, about half have finished and only one is employed in the field. By the same programme he graduated from. Even had I finished, that was never going to be a viable option.

I wish I could say that everything is perfect now. It isn’t. But it was worse when I was there.

3

You haven’t quit your PhD program - you’ve looked at things realistically and realised that spending more time on it would be futile, and so have wisely decided to embark on a new endeavour. Also, the time you did spend on it was not wasted, as you did learn some things, one of which is that the intense pressure (often self-induced) of a structured PhD is not in the cards for you right now.

On the other hand, the knowledge you have gained is real. You can still correspond with people who share similar research ideas, and maybe even publish, if you’ve something to contribute. Not having a PhD does not make any ideas you have less valid.

4

Indistinguishable, sorry to hear that. Maybe it is some consolation, but: academia is not all it is cracked up to being. I’m looking to get out myself, and get into industry. It took me a long time to realise but there’s interesting work being done in industry that could never be done in academia and is fully capable of challenging you (the implicit assumption in academia seems to be that industry is a wasteland of interest).

Further, even being accepted into a PhD position holds a cachet for employers, and the nice thing about theoretical CS/mathematics is that having a career in industry is no bar to returning to academia at a later stage, if that’s what you want (in fact, I can think of one prominent computer scientist who dropped out of his PhD, worked in industry for 30 years, and then returned, now with a permanent position).

5

I have an MSc in Chemistry, AKA “PhD Dropout”.

In my case it wasn’t depression, it was that I didn’t take it nicely when my advisor and the professor in charge of the graduate program published my research without my name, and then being told “you’re just a fucking foreigner, you can’t even take a shit without my permission”.

Never tell a Navarrese “you can’t do this, I won’t let you”; it triggers our “watch my ass” gene. I switched to a Masters-without-Thesis after pointing another professor towards the subject; the professor “retired due to health problems” and the advisor teaches in his hometown’s CC (I wasn’t the first student from whom they stole).

My next job was in research, I eventually came back home for reasons unrelated to whether people was willing to consider me a decent chemist or not. And while my current job isn’t directly related to chemistry, most of my customers value my background.

6

“It’s embarrassing to admit to…”

Don’t be embarrassed, I’m pretty sure, after seven years struggling, it’s not going to be a complete shock, to friends and family, that there were issues, truly.

Not a lot of people would have kept at it that long, kudos for the perseverance!

7

Are you getting treatment for your depression? Particularly in this time of transition, please don’t neglect your health.

8

well first n foremost, you are a bright guy, I know you will come out of it.

depression comes from chronic medical issues, its quite natural. Maybe that(depression + medical issues) is messing up your thinking as well as your work for the most part. Try to take it easy on yourself, forget your situation as much as possible, be with family, friends, talk to them.

in my opinion, its abt getting our thinking, our perspective, our state of mind straight, this should be the priority…beyond that, what degrees, position we achieve or not achieve in our lives is immaterial.

I had goals in life which I will never be able to fulfill, yeah it does disappoint but it doesn’t matter.

9

A PhD is a degree for someone who wants a job that requires a PhD. That’s it.

It is not a reward for intelligence. There are plenty of extremely smart, capable, and competent people without them, and quite a few idiots with.

Not achieving a PhD is (usually) just common sense: the costs involved in pursuing this degree, financial, temporal, and social, are not worth the rewards. The bright shiny “Dr. So-and-So” on the end is pretty cold comfort.

I’m happy with my PhD because I teach in a university, but I generally advise students against pursuing them, and always against getting emotionally invested in a degree for its own sake.

It sounds like you’re making the right decision.

10

It sounds like you’re doing the right thing.
If you’re stuck in a bad situation then leaving takes courage, but opens up many possibilities.

I dropped out of University after my first year. it was the first time I’d failed at anything academic.
But it wasn’t right for me and after a few tries I got a good job.
Then I got a great one and now (35 years later) I’m happily retired.

It may be difficult updating your CV, but be honest.
And remember that you wouldn’t have been accepted for a ‘doctoral program at a top school’ unless you were clever.

11

Wow, that’s really hard man. You have my sincerest sympathies. It blows to have years of investment go poof - even if you didn’t “progress” much in your PhD you still got a Masters in math and that is no small feat. That is an accomplishment.

I don’t know why you think you can never be taken seriously again. I’m not up on the routines of academia at that level but I’m sure that, should you decide to try again later, this will be taken as a sign that you weren’t ready / in the right head space at the time but that has changed.

Either way, best of luck!

12

I think research universities need to set something up to watch a little more closely for this kind of thing. Pursing a PhD is a pretty stressful and difficult process. On top of that people often pursue them at ages where mental health issues first surface, and more so then a lot of other jobs, its really easy to get isolated in PhD program and not have to talk to someone for long periods of time. And also more so then most jobs, you’re more or less on your own recognizance, so if the wheels start coming off the bus, its likely no one will notice or call you on it until a large amount of time has passed and you’re seriously in trouble (as it sounds like happened with the OP).

13

I feel for you my friend, even though I’ve never been a doctoral student, I understand what you are going through. Perhaps I am not the best judge due to my incredibly weak math skills, but I don’t think you need the sheepskin as a measure of your knowledge and skill. It is probably going to cost you on the job market though, maths is one of those areas where degrees and the like are considered valuable without any evaluation of your actual level of expertise. So I hope you can find the way to finish up, but I wouldn’t suggest doing it at the cost of continued depression and the associated misery. I think you just need a break for a while, and maybe that’s something you can work out. But if you don’t end up with that PhD, no big deal. At least in my eyes, for what it’s worth, your level of understanding, and clearly the dedication you have to the mastery of the subject outside of the arbitrary standards of some school put you on a higher plain (or plane) than many who have simply acquired the paper standard. Best of luck to you.

14

I was in a similar situation myself. I was pursuing my PhD in Computer Science, I was at ABD status and I ended up giving it up. For me, it was a multitude of issues. Part of it was I had been going to school fulltime my entire life, and working part-time through undergrad and full-time through grad school, so I burned myself out. Part of it was I had a lot of things happen in my life at the same time, including worsening depression, ending of a long-term relationship, deaths, moving, etc. that I had little motivation for anything, muchless school. Part of it was that I couldn’t pursue the exact topic that I really wanted to, so I didn’t have the level of passion that it really demanded.

After I reached my thesis, I struggle on with it for a few years, hoping that I’d make it through, but I made very little progress despite an amazing level of support of my advisor and fellow classmates. I felt like a complete failure because it was something I wanted to do for a long time, and all of my family, friends, and coworkers supported me in it and regularly gave me encouragement, so as I gave up, it just made me feel worse because I kept hearing them all either ask how I was doing or comment on how close I was.

But in time, the more I thought about it, the more I realized that bringing an end to it was the best choice for me. A PhD, especially in my field, doesn’t really bring much unless one intends to teach or do research. And I came to realize that a lot of the reason that I wanted a PhD was because it was just sort of expected of me, that really smart people should get them, it’s well within my ability and I’m a completionist, so there was just no reason that I shouldn’t get one. So I really had to ask myself why I was doing it and what I would gain from it. And it basically came down to the matters of momentum and intellectual vanity.

It’s always difficult to bring an end to something before reaching the conclusion, but it doesn’t mean that you have to view it as a personal failure. At least in my case, I still see that I learned a lot from the classes I took, I learned a lot about what my limits are, not just from an intellectual and academic perspective, but also on a personal level of emotion, stress, confidence and all of that. It wasn’t going to further my career in any appreciable way, so, really, it wasn’t failure, it was realizing that I wasn’t effectively using my time and resources. Sure, I still have some disappointment about not finishing, but that’s true of anything I’ve left undone, even those things that are even more obviously detrimental to myself. There will be some time grieving, as with any of those other things, but it sounds like you’re doing the right thing, and in time, you’ll come to see it that way too.

15

In many fields, at least half of the people who begin doctoral programs do not finish them. So you’re far from alone.

Any chance you can get an MA out of the ordeal? And don’t be so sure that there aren’t any good letters of recommendation to be had from your advisor(s). Sure, it would be hard to recommend you for an academic job, but your advisor can still speak to your strengths as a a mathematician, no?

16

I second that. The way to phrase it is to ask “I’m thinking of taking some time off from the program. Can you write me a good letter of recommendation for a position in industry?” (Okay, the last word might need some variation.) The point is to make it clear that this isn’t an academic recommendation, and that you’re not burning any bridges with academia. The person in question will either make it clear that they can, or they’ll say something noncommittal. Noncommittal means “no”. Generally, though, I think you’ll get a positive response.

17

I will.

And, for what it’s worth, judging by your contributions here you’ve always been pretty good at writing up your ideas at least at an internet message board level. :slight_smile:

18

I will too.
I interacted with **Indistinguishable **on a few math questions n ofcourse read his other posts on different topics. Comes across as a very intelligent n sensible person.

19

Thanks for the sympathy everyone. I’m still processing my emotions and figuring out my next steps; I’ll maybe write some more specific replies to specific posts later.

I will note I’ve already been aware for some time that I would not be happy in the academia rat race (hence my having already reached out to Google). So I guess really, all I’ve lost is the dignity of my exit. But man, even knowing life will be ok after a painful transition, it’s hard to get into that mindset right now.

20

You have my sympathy. A doctorate can be a total and depressing thing. It took me a decade to complete mine, because I changed institutions (at the school’s request. Actually, they wanted me to not finish.) I have a friend who is in her thirty third year of pursuing her doctorate. No joke. 33, as in more than three decades. In between she had family deaths, financial crises, and a divorce or two.
I’ve also had friends drop out of Ph.D. programs for various reasons, running from advisor hostility to lack of time. They ended up with no regrets.