Prayer Versus Free Will

There’s a current thread that began by asking why some people live and others die during a plane crash or mine disaster or whatever, and it has morphed into a general discussion of the Problem of Evil. The most popular answer from Christians seems to be some variation of God not interfering because he allows us Free Will.

As I noted in a brief response there, a non-interfering God makes sense for Deists, but not for Christians, since most of them are encouraged by their priests and ministers to pray for all kinds of divine help — heal this sick person, divert that hurricane, please Jesus keep the President from doing something stupid, etc. If you are a Catholic, you believe that the wafer and wine are magically transformed into the actual body and blood of Jesus as a matter of routine.

More importantly, Jesus himself promised that a believer would get ANYTHING he prayed for. He didn’t say that your request had to be unselfish, or noble, or conform to God’s will (which would make any prayer request redundant and unnecessary); he didn’t say “sometimes the answer is no;” and he didn’t say that the answer would be some vague “sign” that might show up months or years later, and which you were responsible for noticing and correctly interpreting. He said you would get immediate, tangible assent to your requests for violations of natural laws. He illustrated this by cursing a fig tree for not having fruit out of season.

Matthew 21, KJV:
"21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away. 21:20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away! 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. "

So Jesus could hardly have picked better examples to show that stupid, silly, and even spiteful prayers would be granted.

This is a completely unsolicited and specific promise from Jesus Christ, but I have never met a Christian who is willing to convert me by demonstrating its truth (I typically ask for something very small and harmless, like holding a nickel in my hand and asking them to change it into a penny). They always mumble something about not tempting God, but cannot explain clearly why there is anything wrong with accepting Jesus’ offer.

I think it’s obvious that they don’t believe this verse, and with good reason — whole towns of devout Christians prayed for deliverance when the Black Plague was ravaging Europe, but they died at the same horrific rates as Muslims and pagans. In the 2000 years since this promise was made, not a single Christian has been able to demonstrate the truth of that verse. All they have are the same kind of scattered, infrequent, and dubious reports of miracles that every religion claims.

So, my questions for Christians are:

  1. How can you reconcile your explanation of God not interfering with natural law when it comes to the Problem of Evil, with the clear promise of Jesus that you can violate natural law any time you want?

  2. If you believe in the Bible, why do you not accept the plain meaning of the verses I quoted above? “ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER YE ASK IN PRAYER, BELIEVING, YE SHALL RECEIVE

  3. If you think it’s wrong to give a small demonstration of the power of prayer in order to convert me, then why do you pray constantly in church and elsewhere for much bigger things, and even (not all of you) insist on your “right” to pray at public functions?

Jesus also said ask anything in my name, in other words God inside you asking. As you know God does not generally do parlor tricks, and God is not to be commanded to preform to man’s order.

Jesus said He can only do what He sees the Father doing and by asking in the name of Jesus is Jesus asking. He can’t see the Father bowing down to your will and having you command Him to transmute metal.

So by asking a believe to pray to transmute metal, you are ordering the Father to do so and it just doesn’t work like that, so your request goes unanswered because it was not Jesus who asked.

This is the tempting God part, and the reason Jesus would not follow Satan’s instruction in His temptation.

I don’t know that at all. I know God allegedly did parlor tricks for Pharaoh. I know that the same Christians who mumble stuff about not tempting God pray for all kinds of things, including victory in sports events.

And I know what Jesus allegedly said in the verse I quoted. He said that believers get ANYTHING WHATSOEVER they pray for, and he emphasized ANYTHING by giving specific examples that had nothing to do with God’s will.

Well, he could see the Father bowing down to my will and having me command Him to cast a mountain into the sea, so there is obviously something wrong with your logic.

According to the verse I quoted, that is exactly how it works. You have not given any verses that refute me; you have only given your unattested knowledge of what Jesus wants.

And if you can find a verse that says I WON’T be able to cast a mountain into the sea just on a whim, then you have found a contradiction in the Bible.

If you have absolute faith in God’s Plan you can do anything…but if you do anything that means that you wish to change God’s Plan, which means that you really didn’t have absolute faith in the first place.

Did you know that I can turn invisible, but only if nobody is looking at me?

The title of the thread is “Prayer Versus Free Will,” and I see a lot in your OP about prayer, but very little about free will.

You note in your first paragraph that some Christians answer the problem of evil, with something about free will. I just don’t see how free will relates to the rest of your post. Maybe the problem is that I don’t understand Christians’ answer about the relationship between free will and the problem of evil.

Well, I for one have faith that when I’m not looking at you, you are invisible.

You have the free will to do what He says, and He has the free will to send you to Hell if you don’t.

How do you come up with that interpretation? Asking in Jesus’s name is just what it sounds like, which is why I had to listen to the boring old dude up front repeat “In Jesus’ name we pray” every Sunday.

Really? And what else would you call something like turning water into wine?

Since I don’t believe it, I’m not the best person to explain it. Maybe you can start here:

But more specific to my post, surely you can see the problems that would result if the verse I quoted were actually true. If anybody can get anything they pray for, then what happens when both sides in a war pray for victory, or two golfers playing the Masters pray to win, or whatever? In any zero-sum contest, if I pray to win and my prayer is granted, then everybody else must lose. So what happens to free will and natural law in a world where all prayers are granted?

maybe it works like Green lantern’s ring-the greater the will, the better goodies you get.

And I know Christians will say that no TRUE [del]Scot[/del] Christian would ever pray for things like winning a game, or harm to his enemies, but that assumes that Christians are perfect. I know a lot of Christians who very sincerely believe in Jesus and his resurrection, but can be total shits in everyday life. Jesus said that the only prerequisite was belief, not perfection.

What’s the relationship between a prayer and a wish?

Puberty.

I am confused over this idea of prayer. It seems to be identical to wishing to a magical genie. Is God seen as a magical genie?

Prayers seem selfish to me. Why would God grant your prayer over the prayer of someone else? Wouldn’t prayers interfere with God’s plan? God seems to have everything laid out already. What purpose does praying serve?

Ahh, so insufficient belief leads to unwithered fig trees. Makes sense, and seems an out to the OP’s quoted passage… it’s not that the answer is “no”, it’s simply that you didn’t beleive hard enough.

BTW, while unlike John Mace I’m not prepared to have *faith *that you can turn invisible when unobserved, I’d be happy to state that if I’m not looking at you I don’t *know *if you’re invisible. (Agnostic) :slight_smile:

Nope, Jesus said that even the tiniest speck of faith is enough.

Matthew 17:20 (KJV)
“for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.”

Also, why does god hate amputees?

Igor’s theory is that prayer is hope with a beat to it.

God loves amputees-that’s why there are so many of them.

Thus simply proving that those who pray and do not receive have less faith than a mustard seed. QED. :slight_smile: