Prayers that Actually Work

Great Debates
201

If you had my back, you’d believe that backaches exist.

No, you are not making me post here and neither is anyone else.

Try this one: An insane person is not truly evil because this person is not truly aware of what he is doing. Only an insane person would choose eternal torment. Therefore, only insane persons willingly go to Hell, not evil ones. Therefore, the only persons being tormented in Hell are those who didn’t know what they were doing, who did not know the consequences of their actions.

Libertarian, do you believe that Hell exists? If so, what is it like? Where did it come from; who created it?

Did you or did you not pray that Dawson’s body be healed? Was Dawson’s body healed? Or did you pray, “Please heal my beloved Dawson,” and decide to interpret the subsequent death of his body as healing? I ask you again, if Dawson’s body had lived, would you interpret THAT as having your prayer answered?

First of all, don’t call me “boy.” I’m 43. Second, “A” is “A” because we have defined it so. It’s the same as saying that the North Pole is the northernmost point on a globe. Why? Because it is defined as such! If it wasn’t the northernmost point on a globe, it wouldn’t BE the North Pole! This is why you can’t go north of the North Pole. Once you leave the North Pole, in any direction, you are heading south. Why? Because “south” is defined as “the compass point directly opposite of north.”

Definition of “axiom” from http://www.m-w.com :

I don’t see anything tautological in there, do you? Also, I don’t see that definition circling back to the word being defined. (Maybe to you that means the word isn’t properly defined!)

Taking away my mother’s pain would not interfere with her free will. In fact, it might enhance it, by allowing her to think clearly.

Okay, is it a figure of speech or not?

And you think the brain senses a hallucination without using its senses?

202

I think you proceed from a false premise which dooms your scenario. If I somehow became convinced that the Fundy God were the real deal, I would hope that I could find the strength, sanely, to choose eternal torment before submitting to that Guy.

203

Good point.

204

Yes, “prayer” should be defined the way the people who do the praying see fit. And, for that matter, the people doing the praying should be allowed to define, precisely, what is meant by saying that a prayer “works”.

But no consistent definition of what a ‘working’ prayer means has yet appeared in this thread.

Some Christians here have suggested that a prayer “works” whenever it brings you closer to God. (Let’s call this “definition 1.”) Other Christians here, however, have related anecdotal stories about how he or she or someone he or she knows prayed that X would happen, and then X actually did happen, with the clear implication that this is an example of a prayer “working.” (Let’s call this “definition 2.”)

Obviously, we can’t use both definitions if we want to have a rational discussion about whehter prayers “work,” and if so, whether they always “work.” Certainly, if we use definition 2, it is trivially easy to show that prayer does not always “work.” If we use definition 1, it is impossible to show an instance where prayer doesn’t “work” because definition 1 is not subject to disproof (and is therefore not a scientific definition).

205

And there is always definition 3: “I don’t even believe in prayer, so it doesn’t matter what you call it or how you have proclaimed it to have worked.”

Which was my earlier point. This seems like an argument for Christians to have with each other. Which brings up the point - what the hell am I doing here?

Hey, public place - I can be here if I wanna.

206

Good luck, Tracer. I tried back on the bottom of page 3, but not much came of it:

I’m afraid what we’re going to get, even with your definition, are responses like “I prayed for the wisdom to make the right choice and God delivered” or “I prayed for strength, and I received.”

I also worry that your “always works” standard is too high. What we’ll get are replies like “God doesn’t do party tricks” and “God wouldn’t ever grant an evil request.”

So in anticipation of the above I propose that we limit the discussion to prayers that request a measurable, tangible or objective thing. Furthermore I’d just be happy to know if this kind of prayer works better than chance.

207

bnorton wrote:

And again, even that’s not nailed down enough. Even if we limit the discussion to prayers that request measurable, tangible or objective things, if we don’t define a prayer “working” to mean that the tangible, measurable, objective thing actually happened as requested, then we’ll be stuck with vague answers like, “Well, sure, when I prayed I asked God for a new Ferrari, and I never got a Ferrari – but, God did grant me an extra 5% bonus on my last paycheck, so my prayers worked!”

(Or, for that matter, “We prayed for our gransdson not to die, and now he’s in heaven with eternal life, so our prayers worked.”)

208

Well, I’m starting to think that if I prayed for my TV to turn into a english speaking dog, and it did, you guys would still find something wrong with it.

So let’s say I have a prayer that works everytime. But God doesn’t answer unless you believe in Him. What good is it going to do you? Why would you even care if you don’t believe?

209

You’d have to prove it was God who made your TV transform and not SA-TAAAAANNNNN or any other deity.

Good luck. I mean, as a believer, how would you know it was God who answered your prayer(s) and not Satan? Isn’t Satan supposed to be the Prince of Lies? Couldn’t he answer a prayer for the purposes of getting you to follow him instead? You might reply, “I felt all this love. it couldn’t have been Satan.” But it seems to me that pretending to love you is exactly how Satan could get you to join him. Honey attracts more flies than vinegar, you know.

210

Uhh, God has control over and more power than satan. Does that answer it?

211

This is getting ridiculous.

From time immemorial (which I actually think is some time in 1187 or some ridiculous thing like that) we have made up mythologies to explain our natural surroundings and our existance here. When we couldn’t figure out how the sun crossed the sky, we made up stories about a guy in a carriage drawing it across above our heads. When we can’t find a purpose for our existance that suits us, or we aren’t happy knowing that our lives can be ruled by random events in the natural world, we form gods to pray to.

My initial example of this was Native Americans doing rain dances. When it rained, their prayers were answered. When it didn’t, their rain gods were angry. They’d done something wrong, not had enough faith, done the dance improperly, and so forth.

No one has answered the question about praying to OTHER things. People occasionally have items that they believe have mystical powers to answer their “prayers.” Witches, those into Santeria or Voodoo cast “spells” of various sorts which they have great faith in. They all believe their gods, in one form or another, are answering their prayers.

It’s not appropriate to answer this query with “we all pray to the same god,” because clearly, we don’t. Someone worshipping satan who believes his pleadings are being answered is likely not praying to YOUR god, no? If I develop a great faith in my garbage can and get on my knees before it every night, I can convince myself of the same thing you have…that I’m being heard and answered, no matter what the “answer” is.

What Christians do constitutes creation of mythology to explain their lives and their purpose here.

-L

212

Satan can’t turn a TV into an English-speaking dog? Are Vishnu, Zeus, or Odin able to?

213

Allow me to wax anecdotal for a moment.

A mature couple that I know very well grow large amounts of soft fruits in their garden; year after year they had a terrible problem with wild birds consistently taking the entire crop. The birds were not deterred by netting or scarers.
They were considering giving up when someone at their church suggested ‘giving the garden to God’ in prayer, so they did.
Since that time, they have found that only a very small amount of fruit is taken by the birds, this has remained the case for twelve years or more.

OK, now let me address a few of the possible objections…
That’s anecdotal, where’s the proof? - Fair enough, I did say it was anecdotal, I could introduce you to them if you like…
It might just be coincidence - Yes, it might (but quite a striking coincidence in that case).
They might be lying - Yes it’s possible, but knowing them, I don’t think so
Some other factor might be involved - Certainly, but if so, it wasn’t introduced by them, so as far as they are concerned, it came out of the blue (i.e. they didn’t contrive to ‘answer’ the prayer themselves).
How could God let babies die and still be interested in soft fruit? - Tricky and a good question that deserves an answer, but not in this topic (we were asked for examples of where prayer has appeared to work, not why isn’t doesn’t always appear so).
If God is protecting the crop, how come the birds still take some? - I asked them exactly that and they pointed me at the verse in the bible about God looking after the birds…
Subconsciously, their habits must have changed, maybe they’re picking the fruit earlier now than they did before. - Nope, they never got to see the fruit fully ripe beforehand, now they do.
So, make of it what you will, dismiss it if you like, whatever, but it stands as an example where prayer appears to have worked consistently.

214

cykrider wrote:

Cyk, if you could demonstrate your TV actually turning into an English-speaking dog, not only would I be convinced that something supernatural was going on, but James Randi would give you a million dollars.

But somehow, I doubt that such a thing has or ever will actually happen.

215

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mangetout *
**

Mangetout, I will now begin praying that your friends’ fruit will be overwhelmed by hoards of hungry birds in all future years (I like birds, so there :slight_smile: ).

I don’t need to know your friends’ names (God knows, doesn’t She?) so I’m sure my prayers will work. Any moment now, the birds will come back (watch for it!); then you can add this experience to your tale of prayer proof.

216

I tried to avoid getting into this thread, but as it is Sunday…

If the OP is asking for a formula to apply that will guarantee results, no, there is no such thing. That is not prayer; it is magic.

If the OP is asking for examples of prayers whose results were apparently granted as requested, there are lots. C.S. Lewis prayed for healing for his wife, who had bone cancer. She apparently recovered, and they spent the three happiest years of his life together. Then the cancer recurred, and she died.

Almost by definition, all such examples are going to be anecdotal. If God was like a candy machine, where you put in the right change and the goodies always result, this would not be prayer but natural law, like physics.

It Don’t Work Like That.

Hold up whatever hoops you like, yell “Jump” as loud as you want, threaten to disbelieve in His existence if He doesn’t come across, butter Him up with flattery, hold your breath until you turn blue - whatever you like. God likes to be talked to, but He will not be manipulated.

Luke 4:9. Look it up. You can’t do experiments on God.

Or if that doesn’t work for you, here is a prayer that is always granted.

“Thy will be done.”

The only question about that is how, and by whom.

Regards,
Shodan

217

I think the verse you want is Luke 4:12. Here it is in context:

But as long as we are quoting scripture, how about Matthew 21:22. Here it is in context:

In the text that you refer to Jesus was being asked by Satan to perform like a circus monkey, and Jesus said screw that. That’s not really the same as sincerely petitioning God for something.

In the Matthew text, Jesus makes it pretty unambiguous that God will grant you your prayers.

Big deal. If God’s going to do what God’s going to do anyway, why bother praying?

Re: the Anecdotal nature of the OP. While it is difficult to quantify something like this, it seems to me that there are circumstances in which some valid data could be derived. Consider an airplane crash in which there are some fatalities and some survivors. It would be interesting to see if there is any diffrence in the religious beliefs of the survivors vs. the non-survivors or or the susvivors vs. the general public. While quantifying something like religious beliefs is tricky, it could be done.

218

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Musicat *
**

This raises a good question, what happens if two faithful believers petition God earnestly for conflicting things? (but both things are good things from the POV of the person praying)

219

Well, apparently the same thing as when (a) two or two million faithful believers pray supportively for the same thing (the Princess Di example), (b) two faithful believers don’t pray at all, © two heathens don’t pray, (d) one heathen prays for X and one faithful believer prays for NOT X. In all cases nothing.

220

Thanks, but I meant “what do believers think would happen?”