Why would prayers work, and by prayers I mean the type that are meant to keep someone alive. For example, let’s say I have terminal cancer and I’m dying. Why would praying be the right thing to do? Why would God intervene?
My thoughts are like this: He wouldn’t. If he/she deems you good enough to get into heaven, then why would he want you to stick around on earth?
Shouldn’t people be praying for a speedy and relatively painless death? So that they could get to heaven quicker?
For this debate, let’s assume that the Christian version of what to believe is correct (the basics, not the fundies).
Assuming that ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are the critria that matter (just mentioning that because not everybody does accept that assumption); in that case why wouldn’t God just ‘FOOM!’ you to heaven when you reached such a point of virtue, regardless of whether you’re dying of something or other?
I was under the impression that true prayers are for the benefit of the prayer, not the prayed about.
It would be pretty pointless to just pray for something you want to happen. Like God is some great Santa in the sky. But if you believed in the Christian God, it might make sense to pray for understanding as to why such events occur and also for peace that you might accept these events.
However, I will agree with you that the phrase “I will pray for you” does have the potential to be right up there with the worst kind of sanctominity and logical error.
Good question, Mange. Maybe he/she/it is testing your faith, sort of like Job, for one last time. You know, push them to the breaking point.
But then again, I don’t think a lot of people actually pray for a quick demise-they pray for a recovery. Maybe God thinks, “they obviously want to stick around longer, so I’ll prolong this, but eventually they are coming to me”.
I know this sounds retarded, but why do people with faith pray for a recovery as opposed to a demise?
Kabbes-I’m no expert, but now that I think about it, you are pretty close to the mark (as far as I’m concerned). Prayers shouldn’t be a christmas type wish list.
When one prays correctly, one prays for one’s “wish list”, but then one always closes with, “Nevertheless, not my will but Thine”, or something similar.
In other words, it’s perfectly permissible to ask God for stuff you want, as long as you also admit to God that He’s in charge, and that ultimately it’s all up to Him, whatever He wants to do.
This, then, provides the explanation for the prayed-for cancer patient who does not, after all, go into miraculous remission, and who dies anyway–“We prayed that God would spare him if it was His will, but evidently it wasn’t.”
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with pouring out your wishes in prayer (“if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me”), but “Yet not as I will, but as you will” is an important qualifier.
IMO, trying to second-guess God is pretty much impossible because either:
-There is no such entity (not what personally I believe, but there you are)
or
-He is by definition beyond our full comprehension and will not be restrained by a simple set of formulae “if I ask this in just the right way then he will be constrained to answer in the affirmative”
Why do people pray for recovery rather than speedy/painless demise? - well, not all do, but the dying person isn’t the only part of the equation; lots of other people are affected.
(although it would be foolish to dismiss the thought that some probably want more time here so that they can do more of various stuff here on Earth)
Many folk in the christian community used to believe the “if your prayers aren’t answered, you didn’t have enough faith” crap.
Then, one of our pastors wives got sick with cancer.
This woman was the most Christ-like person anyone had ever known. Even non-christians would have to admit that.
Lots of prayers went out.
She died.
Nowadays, all who were in that church know that God doesn’t always answer prayers, and how much faith you have has nothing to do with it.
Most prayers are self serving, asking god for this and that
the problem with praying for the peaceful demise of someone with a terminal illness is that the person with the terminal illness usually isn’t in such a hurry to meet st. peter, nor his maker. So to pray for a person to die peacefully is only applicable if the person is interested in dying.
prayer for the sick functions as a show of emotional support more than asking god for a favor.
prayer=meditation
prayer= a show of kinship/connectedness
prayer=something to do to keep one’s self busy
prayer= a way of telling god “IMVHO…”
now, i have seen a study where prayer chains were the only variable in a double blind study and many of the patients in the “prayed for” group showed more improvement that those who were not.
i’ll see if i can dig up the article somewhere and cite
here’s the cite, i don’t know how to link to the page (sorry)
Randolph C. Byrd “Positive Therapeutic effects of Intercessory prayer in a Coronary Care Unit Population” Southern Medical Journal 81, no.1 (July 1988):826-29
Now, as i read it, there were some statistically significant improvements in some aspects of the paitents’ recovery, but nothing overwhelming,
has anyone else scrutinized that piece more thoroughly?
That always confused me as well. Given the terms as laid out by the Christians/Jews/Muslims… God is omnipotent. If you start there, God knew exactly what was going to happen (Mom got cancer, etc) from the beginning of time, and likewise knew what your wishes would be at the time. This (IMHO) logically means whatever happens is God’s will and your wishes in the matter were known from the beginning… so ANY prayers ASKING for something are a waste of time.
Why pray at all?
I hear a lot of Christians saying that God basically chooses to answer or not answer prayers according to some overall greater agenda of his own. My question then is this: why pray at all? If God is Omniscient, then he a) already knows what you want so you don’t have to verbalize it. b) already knows everything that’s GOING to happen, so his “decisions” are already made.
To pray for something implies that God can change his mind (i.e. he WAS going to kill all those babies in the bus crash, but now he’s not because you prayed.)
If praying did nothing to prevent millions of innocent people (including babies) from being slaughtered by the Nazis, then why would prayer work for ANYTHING? If God is EVER going to intervene in human affairs, wouldn’t that be the moment? Eli Wiesel said on this topic that God’s lack of intervention in the holocaust proves at least one of the following: God is not all powerful and COULD not stop the holocaust, or God is not all good and did not CHOOSE to stop the holcaust. BTW the old “mysterious ways” bit is rejected outright by Wiesel. Essentially he says that there is no reason good enough, divine or otherwise, to allow children to be tortured and burned.
greck is right in pointing out that prayers have different purposes.
prayer=meditation … absolutely
prayer=asking for things … yes
prayer=show of kinship … maybe, maybe
Add to this
prayer=mark of obedience
prayer=opening your mind to try and comprehend things beyond your grasp, ideas you may have been shutting out
prayer=letting God express what he wants, rather being driven by what you want.
MangetoutThe idea that God is all-knowing is more on the order of “he could do anything” rather than “he does do everything”. Sgt. J, this also answers in part your question, God might do anything or everything, but that doesn’t mean he’s decided which things in particular.
vanilla, I’ll assume the quote is “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.” (Matthew 7:7) This is Jesus speaking.
It’s easy to guess he is not talking about asking for fancy robes, a big house and servants. If he was, presumably he and all the disciples would have been rolling in luxury. The word “door” makes what would be obvious – to people listening at the same time about “The Golden Rule” and not casting pearls before swine – that what will be given – just for the asking – are spiritual gifts.
I have a question for the fundies: If Jesus was God, then why did he pray? Wasn’t he talking to himself? Also, why did he believe that God had “forsaken” him on the cross? How was it possible for God to forsake himself? How was it possible for Jesus to BELIEVE he had been forsaken if was an omniscient God? Why would Jesus ask questions to God if he WAS God?
Kabbes, No, your answer doesn’t really suffice because you’re still ASKING for something. Even if you’re seemingly asking for benign things like peace and understanding, these things are still self-serving in their own subtle way. More importantly, these requests imply that God’s “plan” is not perfect the way it is, and that he should CHANGE it. To ask God for any kind of CHANGE, no matter how well-meaning or selfless is to show a lack of faith in God’s perfection. BTW your post didn’t really address the question of the seeming SUPERFLUOUSNESS of prayer. What is the point of verbalizing anything to an omniscient being. Doesn’t God already KNOW everything you think and want?
I’m not familiar with Eli Wiesel, but it sounds from what you’ve posted, that he’s an athiest who uses the Holocaust to justify his beliefs (or lack there of). If one were to accept that God is beyond human comprehension (and I’m not saying you should accept that) then one must accept that Gods reasons must also be beyond human comprehension. There fore one could not conclude that the reasons are not good enough. This is baisicly the message behind the book of Job. Also, for christian’s, muslims, and jews what happens in this world (including the bodies of children) is not important as the focus is on the next life and spirituality.
