Praying in public, ashes, etc. and Matthew 6

Great Debates
1

Seeing people with ashes on their heads today for Ash Wednesday reminded me of a question I have for observant Christians regarding that and other public displays of piety, prayers, etc.

I read the four Gospels a while back and remember getting really confused by the beginning of Matthew 6. In that section, Jesus seems to get really specific about how to be pious, how to pray, how to show your piety.

Here’s the section:

First, walking around with ashes on your forehead seems to go directly against paragraph 1. Then, starting in paragraph 5, He cautions against public prayer, basically saying you should never do it. It makes you a hypocrite and says you’ll get nothing from such prayer. Then, He says not to actually pray for anything specific, but rather just speak the Lord’s Prayer and the Lord will know what’s in your heart.

This is all so in conflict with many things I see Christians do – praying in public, before each meal, praying for specific things, not using the Lord’s prayer, practicing righteousness in front of others (public prayers, ashes on the forehead, and maybe even wearing crosses) – that I think I must be missing something obvious.

So, help a guy out. I’m asking honestly, this isn’t some sort of gotcha. I ask other skeptics, atheists, etc., to participate in good faith (ha!) as well.

I’m pretty busy tonight, so I may not be back into this thread (assuming anyone is interested) until tomorrow. Also, if this question has been asked many times before, feel free to just link to those threads. If it has been answered, I’ll ask a mod to close this one.

Thanks!

2

Well, it says not to do it in public to be seen by others. So if you’re not doing it in order to be seen by others, then it doesn’t seem to violate the code. The rest of that is a little more explicit about praying by yourself, but it seems that the main gist is what your motivation is. Are you showing off, or just praying while you happen to be in public? The latter is OK, the former not so much. Saying grace with your family is not what I’d call “in public”.

3

Not to be ‘that guy’ because I’m usually not, but this all works on the premise that people actually do what the bible tells them to do as opposed to just cherry picking the parts they like and pretending like the other parts don’t exist.

That passage also suggests not to pray by going on and on and on and on and (in some versions) just repeating the same thing over and over and over…I know I haven’t been to Church in about 25 years, but that’s about how I remember it.

4

See? No matter how much it’s in public, even if it’s in a football stadium, they make a big show of it and link it up to some social/political aim, they can say that it’s not to be seen in public or to serve that social/political end, it’s to have many people take part in praying together and to communally ask for help with that social/political aim. Even a televangelist who prays from his megachurch podium on TV every week can say that he merely aims to motivate people to pray and to pray along with his audience. You’d have to have a thought reading device to prove them wrong since whenever they make sure to pray in public, they can always say that it’s not to be seen per se, it just happens to be in public in a way that coincidentally matches up with the behavior of someone who wants to be seen praying in public.

Which is all bullshit rationalization to give a veneer of absolute certainty, authority and license to what people start out wanting to do but that’s hardly new.

5

Even more on point is verses 16-18 of that chapter:

That doesn’t even get into the motivations for why you’re leaving a smudge on your face: It just flat-out says that you should wash up so that others can’t tell that you’re fasting.

6

John Mace, thank you, but that seems a little stretched. Chronos, thanks for that other reference as well.

Joey P and MichaelEMouse, I’m not a moderator, but I’d like to ask again that this stays civil. I’m not in any way a believer, but I’d like to understand better how this can possibly make sense. This passage really stunned me, given how I’ve seen Christians act and I’d like to understand the mindset. I think your posts are not helpful, and may discourage actual Christians from responding.

7

It seems totally on point to me. IMHO the most natural interpretation is that Jesus is talking about motivation: Are you praying or fasting or whatever in order to be seen by others? Jesus’s own personal example suggests that he wasn’t forbidding all prayer in front of other people. For example, he once gave thanks in front of over 5000 people.

IMHO it’s most natural to believe, and most Christians do believe, that Jesus gave the Lord’s Prayer as an example, not as the only prayer one should ever pray. Again, evidence for this view includes Jesus’s own personal example.

As for the Ash Wednesday ashes, I am not a Catholic (nor a member of any other church that regularly practices this), but I think the ashes are for the benefit of those receiving them, not so that they can be seen by others. For example, I found this Catholic site (warning: autoplay video) that says

8

Hypocrisy, thy name is public prayer.

9

I don’t think it seems a little stretched at all; John Mace is just pointing out what the text says. On the contrary, it seems to me like a bit of a stretch to ignore those words and read the text as if they weren’t there.

There’s an inevitable tension here: on the one hand Christianity is a communal religion and it’s simply not possible to be a Christian on your own. Practising Christianity with others, and therefore in a way visible to others, is an intrinsic part of the whole thing. Plus, Christianity is not a religion which preaches or requires disengagement from the world; quite the reverse. So practising Christianity in the sight of the world seems inevitable. All the major Christian traditions, and nearly all of the minor ones, are insistent that, for instance, Christian worship is public; all are welcome, Christian or not.

On the other hand, explicit demonstrations of Christianity in order to seek social advantage or approbation is frowned upon. And of course there’s always a fear that any demonstration of Christian faith may be motivated, or partly motivated, by that desire.

So you have to balance that tension, and different traditions strike the balance in different ways. But they all experience the same tension.

In the quotes from Mt 6, verses 1 and 5 forbid ostentatious manifestations of faith, but it’s explicit that they are forbidden when the purpose is to secure social approbation. That’s not explicitly repeated in verse 18, but verse 18 does contrast discreet behavior with the behaviour of the “hypocrites” in verse 16, who “disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting”, so I think the message is, again, you shouldn’t be doing this to impress others.

10

I’m sorry, but He specifically says to pray in private, in your room. It’s right there in the text. And, while maybe you don’t need to use the exact words of the Lord’s Prayer, He’s pretty specific that you shouldn’t pray for things specifically. Don’t pray to keep your mother safe, to cure some disease, save someone. Just pray to the Lord, since He knows what’s in your heart. In contrast to that, people pray for specific things all the time.

I disagree that you couldn’t have a communal religion without public prayer. You could get together and study the bible, have a community experience, get communion, give to the poor (anonymously, of course), etc., but save the prayers for when you’re home.

Also, giving thanks in front of people is not praying in front of people. It’s thanking them.

I’m sorry if I’m coming across as argumentative, but this passage really baffles me.

11

I don’t know that he says that, although it’s not a ridiculous interpretation. But in other passages, he explicitly says that you can ask for whatever you want in prayer, even casting a mountain into the sea, and it will be granted to you (and he says it right after killing a fig tree out of spite for not having fruit out of season, as if to make even very slow learners realize your prayers don’t have to be noble or unselfish).

The fact that not a single Christian in the last 2000 years has been able to demonstrate this power of instantly get whatever you ask for is IMO all you need to know about the veracity of Jesus’ promises regarding things more difficult to test, such as eternal life.

12

I’m not sure where you’re getting this from.

I interpreted “and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks” as meaning he was thanking God, not thanking people. Giving thanks to God is an aspect of praying.

I wonder what you make of John 11:41-42.

13

RitterSport, 1. is it your impression that most Christians feel it’s inappropriate to pray in public, i.e., in church during Sunday observances, or during a memorial service?

  1. Given that Christians believe Jesus is God, is it your impression that when Jesus walked upon the Earth, He objected to people asking Him for specific favors, like, “Lord, please cast the demon out of my son”. Or, “Lord, if you will it, my servant will be healed.” or “If I but touch the tassel of his prayer-shawl, I shall get well.” . . . ?

  2. Is it your impression that Jesus when He walked upon the Earth, He had a problem with Jewish men wearing the customary tasseled prayer-shawls? (Hint: He wore one)

14

What I said isn’t, in anyway, intended as a dig (though it may come off as one). As an Atheist (and I’m a card carrying member myself), you should see that Christians pick and choose what they follow, believe, say they believe, preach etc. You’ll have a difficult time finding one that acts (or even believes (in a do as I do, not as I say type way)) in accordance with the Bible.
The passage you pointed out is simply one of many ignored, or unknown, by many believers.

There are, of course, some of the more obvious once, but there’s also things like not giving in to wealth (Matthew 19:23). Luke 16:18 states that it’s adultery, which breaks a commandant, to get divorced and remarry or to marry a divorced woman*. Philippians 2:14-18, no complaining about anything, ever.
Going down a bit further from the OP (Matthew 25-28) it says not to worry about food or clothes, god will figure all that out. As long as you’re good today, he’ll take care of tomorrow.

It’s a long book with lots of short passages by a bunch of people. We could go on and on. All I’m saying is that you took one and asked why it gets ignored. People ignore it because they want to, because they can, because everyone else does, because they don’t get called on it (though Atheists do).

IOW, it’s ignored because most people aren’t aware of it or don’t care. I’d guess mostly the former. IME, most Catholics only know what their priest tells them on Sunday. So each week they get a few sentences directly from the bible and a 5-10 minute homily of which it’s quality is totally dependent on the priest.

TL;DR If you’ve “seen Christians act and I’d like to understand the mindset.” this is all it is. Cherry picking bible passages that align with their behavior, whether as a motivation or a defense, and ignoring the ones that don’t.

And, to be honest, of everything in the bible, if that’s the one they want to ignore, it’s pretty innocuous.

15

Many Christians appear to be ignoring what it says in the Bible, by either doing what it says not to do in the Bible, or not doing what it says to do.

I want to be extremely careful and culturally sensitive here: I can only speak from my Catholic understanding. I don’t know the Protestant views on these matters well enough to speak about them.

I can tell you that the Catholic Church regards the Bible as the Word of God written especially for us to revere and to obey. But reading it, it’s possible to find laws, precepts, remarks that seem to contradict one another.

The Apostles, the followers of Christ, were extremely close to the Master, and He explained and reconciled all of these things to them both before and following His Resurrection. So that it all made sense. The Apostles themselves had disciples to whom they imparted the glosses, the teachings, the explanations that Christ had given to them. And the disciples of the Apostles had disciples. And so on, down through the generations. These teachings became what’s known as the oral tradition of the Church. When the men of those times began to write more frequently, many of these things were written down, but not all. And the writings and the oral teachings continued to be collected, complied and handed on, over many, many generations.

Thus there rose up what’s called the Tradition, which includes the Catholic understanding of Sacred Scripture in way that reflects what Christ Himself had shared with His Apostles about how to reconcile disparate commands and teachings, what takes precedence and priority over other things, what remains in force and what may rightly be set aside. That’s the Tradition part.

Some men and women have devoted their entire lives to reading, studying, praying over these teachings. And they have contributed further to the Church’s understanding of how God wants us to live our Christian lives. Many of these men and women have received the title “Doctor of the Church.” This isn’t a “doctor” in the sens of an M.D., but a doctor in the sense of a Ph.D. So these are people with a title that equates to “Ph.D. in the Catholic Faith.” And some of their writings are a part of the Tradition, as well.

Catholics are very careful to avoid taking just one verse: “Do this; don’t do that,” and saying, “here! This is what the Bible says!” There’s actually a whole context, a background, a larger picture in which to understand that passage or that verse. And if you don’t have the context and the larger picture, it would be easy to misinterpret the passage, to miss the meaning. We rely on the authority of Sacred Tradition which we believe passes on to us the information we need to arrive at a full and solid understanding of these verses.

16

That’s all well and good, but what does it mean where the spiritual rubber hits the road? What is the “larger picture” by which Catholics both adhere to the words of the Christ in Matthew 6 and publicly display the token of their faith on Ash Wednesday?

17

“Giving thanks” in this context means “thanking God,” and any form of talking to God is prayer. It is literally the same thing as what you described when people “pray for meals.” Jesus prayed openly many times in Scripture. There are specific commands to pray together. There are other pious people who pray openly. The one thing you don’t see is them praying just to be seen by men.

I’m not sure where you got the idea that Jesus said “don’t pray for anything specific.” That also contradicts specific scriptures that tell you to ask God for something and He will give it to you. The Scripture you quote says not to pray with as many words as you can, thinking that you will be heard because of how many words you use. Yes, God knows what you need before you ask, but that isn’t doesn’t mean “don’t ask.” It means “you don’t need to go on and on about it, explaining in great detail.”

John Mace does a good job in explaining how to interpret Scripture. He looks at all the qualifying remarks in the text. He looks at the context of what is being said. And he looks at other Scriptures to make sure there aren’t any contradictions. One Scripture, especially one out of context, can seem to say something it does not. The Bible must be read as a whole, not in parts.

Jesus entire thesis statement (to use a modern term) is what you quoted first: “Do not do your righteousness to be seen by men.” That is what his sermon is about. It is not specific instructions that you must go to your room and pray in secret, praying exactly the same prayer.

Oh, and the word “hypocrites” in the Bible is specifically Jesus’s word for the religious leaders of his day, who made an ostentatious showing about fasting and praying and such. I’m not sure if this is clear if you are not a Christian. The word hypocrite comes directly from Jesus’ word for them.

Finally, while I am not Catholic. I would agree that, if you wear the ashes on your head and go about in public, you seem to be violating the stuff about fasting in private. But, if that quote is accurate, that seems to assuage my problems. If you are not supposed to go out in public with the mark, then that seems fine.

That said, Catholics are not literalists. They may have their own reasoning there, saying that the mark is not really about the fasting or something like that. I do know that they will not get bogged down on the specific words that were said, and instead focus on the meaning behind all of that. And, well, John Mace has that right, too, in what he calls the “gist.”

I’m impressed, John Mace. Do you have any Christian background, despite not being a Christian yourself? Maybe a lot of Christian friends you’ve discussed this sort of thing with, or grew up with it or anything? Or does it just happen to make sense to you to do it this way?

18

Am I really the first one that’s going to point out that ashes on the forehead isn’t a prayer? Ashes on the forehead also isn’t fasting.

See, fasting is when you don’t eat. Ashes on your forehead is when there’s ashes on your forehead. One is a lack of food for a period of time and the other is ashes on your forehead.

A prayer is when you speak or think a message to God, and ashes on your forehead is when there are ashes on your forehead. The first is a message to the creator of the universe and the other is ashes on your forehead.

Do you have any Bible verses you can cite saying people shouldn’t have ashes on their foreheads?

19

Thank you for your question, Andros.

If you read the text shortly after the first quoted from Matthew 6:1 “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. . . "

“5 And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.”

The Tradition of the Church teaches Catholics that Jesus’ words warn us not so much to avoid specific acts, but to avoid doing these acts with any of several attitudes that offend God. The Catholic understanding is that it’s actually a praiseworthy act to attend Church regulalry, which is “practicing righteousness,” even though done “in front of others.” For you can hardly attend Sunday Mass regularly without being seen by others.

It’s the inner attitude, clearly, therefore, that Jesus is addressing. When we pray, or attend Church, or wear ashes on our forehead, or say grace, we are to do these with sincere hearts, acting solely to offer these as acts of worship to God.

It’s certainly possible to do these things for other motives, such as to receive attention from others, to curry favor with the pastor, to make a splash within the parish community, to give ourselves a pat on the back, and so on. Jesus warns us that if we think we’re fooling God by doing good things for selfish, self-serving reasons, then we’re acting like the “hypocrites” mentioned in verse 5.

An every day analogy would be the wife who loves to receive flowers from her husband in token of his love for her and desire to make her happy. But if she learns that he has been giving her flowers to assuage his guilt for having gambled away his paycheck, then his wife won’t appreciate those gifts of flowers at all. In fact, she’ll be angrier than ever with her husband for double-dealing with her, for being phoney with her.

God hates it when we act phoney with Him, too. And this is the meaning, we believe.

20

Fasting isn’t not eating anything, it’s not eating certain things. Giving something up for lent, not eating meat on Fridays, not eating at all (in some cases) or very little on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday. Many people do these in public. Ashes on your forehead is also a pretty public show of your faith.
Wouldn’t these both go against the first verse posted, that you shouldn’t practice your righteousness in public, where it can be seen by others.

Besides, the way you stated it, saying a prayer is just sound coming out of your mouth.

I’m pretty sure the opposite of that is what happens.