'Praying the Prayer'

Great Debates
1

Modern-day fundamentalist evangelical Protestant/Baptist Christianity, centered in America, has focused on one concept more than any other:

Jonh 4:16- Jesus is the only way to God
Acts 4:12- No other name to call upon to be saved
Romans 10: Confess Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, and you are saved

These Christians don’t care so much about a particular church of Christianity that you belong to or whether you even do, they only put emphasis on the one simple fact that you ‘pray the prayer’ and ‘accept Jesus as your personal Lord and savior.’ They quote Romans- ‘The wages of sin is death’- and use the writings of Paul to explain how those who reject the gospel will be condemned to ‘Hell’ when they die.

I’m not the first person to point out the absence of this ‘prayer’ in the New Testament. It’s only one of many cracks in the faith, so I won’t rant long, except to point out that the real Jesus (not the mythical Jesus who pops up at the end of the three synoptic gospels, John, and Revelations), was a rabbi who admitted that the way to ‘Heaven’ was to follow the commandments (mark 10:17-22) and try to be perfect like God the father. A Christian would argue that Jesus was only saying this b/c later on Paul would tell us that ‘no one is righteous’ and so Jesus is only pointing out that there is no way to heaven. Then, in John, he shows he is the way. That is the trail a Christian would blaze to cover this major crack up; also, in these verses Jesus the Rabbi admits he is not God (only mythical Jesus of document John says he’s God :smack: ).

Also, the New Testament authors don’t make it clear that they are bringing a way to escape eternal damnation! Only the legend-like apostles of document Acts say that in 4:12. In their epistles, Peter and John don’t mention the importance of praying a saving prayer or describe Hell. In fact Peter admits ‘no one has ever seen God’ (I know, I know, you can cover this crack up to Mr. Christian Reconciler)- these guys were running a scam; if I wrote a letter to a church and I had seen a risen man who was the only way to escape the fires of eternal torment, I would transcribe a letter that makes it DAMN CLEAR! I would’ve also transcribed an eyewitness account of Jesus within like a day of it happening, but then let’s ignore that crack for now too. :smiley:

I’ll stop rambling and ask my question already- when did this Modern-day fundamentalist evangelical Protestant/Baptist (whew!) ‘prayer’ start snowballing into the phenom it is today?

2

Oh, but the ‘Hell’ part of it isn’t always true- in fact Billy Graham, who got more people to ‘pray this prayer’ and believe in the love of his ‘God’ than anyone else ever didn’t believe in a literal ‘Hell.’ The 700 Club also brings people to ‘Christ’ (sic) by this ‘prayer’ every freakin’ day, and they never mention ‘Hell.’ Hell, we know from current news stories how hellishly hard it is to believe in ‘Hell’ these days, don’t we? Better just to focus on the love part of the myth and not think about the ‘Hell’ part, let God sort that out later. :wink:

3

I rarely do this, but I gotta see a cite for this. It’s really hard for me to believe that Billy Graham doesn’t believe in hell as described in scriptures.

4

This site goes into detail on it-

".”"In the July, 1978, issue of McCall’s magazine he (Graham) said: “I used to think that pagans in far-off countries were lost– were going to hell– if they did not have the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached to them. I no longer believe that … I believe there are other ways of recognizing the existence of God– through nature, for instance– and plenty of other opportunities, therefore, of saying yes to God.” He elaborated in the book A Prophet With Honor by saying that he “did not automatically consign to hell all who never heard the Christian gospel preached.” In an interview in the April 10, 1983 Orlando Sentinel, Graham said in response to why many Americans didn’t accept the concept of hell: “I think that hell essentially is separation from God forever. And that is the worst hell that I can think of. But I think people have a hard time believing God is going to allow people to burn in a literal fire forever.” In a July, 1983 book written by Graham for distribution at his International Conference for Itinerant Evangelists in Amsterdam, he said: “Hell is not the most popular of preaching topics. I don’t like to preach on it. But I must if I am to proclaim the whole counsel of God. We must not avoid warning of it. The most outspoken messages on hell, and the most graphic references to it, came from Jesus Himself … Jesus used three words to describe hell … The third word that He used is ‘fire.’ Jesus used this symbol over and over. This could be a literal fire, as many believe. Or it could be symbolic … I’ve often thought that this could possibly be a burning thirst for God that is never quenched. What a terrible fire that would be– never to find satisfaction, joy or fulfillment.” In the November 15, 1993 edition of Time magazine, he is quoted as saying: “When it comes to a literal fire, I don’t preach it because I’m not sure about it.” And finally, in a television interview in England he said: “I do not believe in a literal hell now.""

That seems fine to me, because the real Jesus, Jesus the rabbi, only spoke of ‘Gehenna’ from the OT (Jeremiah’s description of the literal place where wicked Jews were seperated from God and a fire literally burned constantly), not ‘Hell’ as is translated in King James and we’ve come to think of it like at the end of Revelations. I know some of the preceding info is a bit off, don’t worry I already read the Wiki article on it. :smiley:

5

Wow, this is a hot thread, and I don’t mean popular.

Not to address all of the other very emotional topics in this tread that would take a book to discuss… I will actually touch on your real question. It’s kind of long, but please bear with me through all of it.

First off, what you are referring to is called “the sinner’s prayer.”

Most evangelical Christians (I am one and associate with many from numerous denominations) do not believe that the “sinner’s prayer” is the only way to heaven.

You have to dissect what they truly believe. They believe that we on earth are all sinners and we could never work our way to heaven. Because of this, Jesus, the son of God, came down and died, paying the penalty of our sins. He rose again and offers you eternal life.

How do you get this eternal life? By realizing you have sinned, repenting of this sin, and following Christ. Most evangelicals believe that is all that is necessary to be a Christian and go to heaven.

Think about it though: how do you repent? By saying you are sorry. How do you say you are sorry to someone? You walk up to them and you tell them, and discuss the situation with them! When you talk to God that is called praying .

There is nothing magical about it, its just a common logic. When people want to do this process usually the first thing they do is say "what do I do, …I …I don’t know how to talk to God” (said with very worried look on their face). This is usually where someone leads them through the “sinner’s prayer.” Its nothing special, it is just convenient because it hits all of the topics.

Many Christians have never said the “sinners prayer,” they have grown up following Christ and asking him for their forgiveness.

Now, its obvious you don’t believe the part about Jesus being the Son of God, repentance, etc, but don’t get your panties in a bunch about the “sinner’s prayer.” It’s just a rough suggestion… a helpful guide to those who have repentant hearts but lack the words.

6

andrew. This is the second thread(at least) that you’ve started in General Questions recently dealing with religion. While there’s nothing inherently wrong with that, you have a tendency to rant about organized religion more than ask a single, factually-answerable question.

Therefore, I’ve moved this one to Great Debates.

In the future, try to ask the question without the baggage, and you’ll find that the moderators in GQ will let it stay in GQ.

samclem Moderator, GQ.

7

Right, yeah, I understand how the prayer is only a simplified version of just kinda starting belief in Jesus and living a Christian life. In the past, when people believed or when missionaries spread the gospel, people just kinda submerged themselves and started living Christian lives, believing in Christian doctrine, correct?
But ‘the prayer’ is significant, though; it’s just such a simple way of jump-starting people’s lives in faith in Jesus that it’s used all over the place! The concept of praying this kind of prayer to begin your Christian life and getting others to do so in order to be saved- like, for instance, Billy is a fundamentalist and he talks to Jack about Jesus; Jack says he totally believes in Jesus b/c he’s been a Catholic since birth; but Billy asks, have you truly accepted him as your personal Lord and savior?; later that day Jack prays the prayer and begins a personal relationship with Jesus- has become it’s own meme (only recently known of that word) practically! Well, the definition of a meme fits pretty much everything humans do, but still, you get what I’m saying.

Here’s where I’ve been invited to pray this kind of prayer, both print and television:

Every Jack Chick tract (dur! :rolleyes: )
Bruce and Stan books
I Gotta Know! by Al Denson
Some show on the veracity of the Ressurection accounts around Easter
700 Club every episode
African-american funeral I attended (very emotional, very evangelical)
Are We Living in the End Times? by Lahaye/Jenkins

Obviously I’ve read and watched a lot of the material that would obviously have this prayer, but the point is every Christian evangelical document/program repeats it. It’s not enough that people believe; you gotta have him in your heart, personal lord and saviour.

As quickly as Islam is spreading by violent means in other countries, they could benefit too from a simple prayer like this. If most of them had access to books or television, they could simply invite people to pray a prayer like this:

Muhammed, I know that I have lived a life that does not bring honor to your name. Please come into my life and become my personal prophet and saviour. Please speak to Allah on my behalf, so that I may share in the glory of the virgins when I die.

If you prayed that prayer and meant it, Dopers, you have a new life in Muhammed! Give it all you’ve got!

8

The Billy quote doesn’t deny the idea of eternal Hell. just the literalness of the fire part. Billy certainly believes in an actual eternal Hell, but prefers to emphasize the love of God through Jesus.

And there’s lotsa mentions of Hell on The 700 Club.

“Praying the Prayer” is the no-frills version of the Altar Call/Invitation which was the Anglican Evangelical 1700s (Whitefield & Wesley) innovation of Peter’s “Baptismal Call” on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2.

9

Wow, I have gotta check that out. Most episodes?

10

Can you quote some examples of when they talk about hell?

11

Well, I do want examples, but you understand my misconception; they don’t preach hellfire as a way of conversion, such as Jack Chick does, b/c that’s really out of date!

12

I find it interesting that you are rather openly skeptical of Fundamentalist Christianity, yet you are willing to buy into the propaganda that a few of those people are spreading about Islam.

13

That’s absolutely true; I have no knowledge on the subject. I was told by a very biased man who mentioned something about it at a casual political meeting. I figured he must be really biased, so I asked him if he knew of any good unbiased resources on this Islamic invasion in other countries, and he didn’t understand. I want to learn about it, but from a non-racist and non-religious viewpoint; I only want the facts about documented examples of violent spreading and planning by Muslims in America and other countries, not just theories and paranoia.

So you can disregard that statement; it wasn’t made out of racist bias. I admit I don’t know the truth about it. While you’re at it, disregard the off-topic ranting in my OP as you already are.

14

I wouldn’t sweat over “the prayer.” It’s simply a way of expressing in words what is essentially an emotional experience.

15

I’m not concerned about it, but merely to get back to the original question: does anyone know the first time they encountered this type of prayer? When did it become popular? Are there any Dopers who remember seeing it sometime in the 50’s or 40’s?

I completely understand what everyone is saying about this prayer not being a big deal, just a simple version of older traditions, but I’ve made it obvious that I see it as a significant element on its own. I would very much like to know which decade of the 20th century this evangelical prayer that leads people to a personal relationship with Jesus began becoming prominent. It has significance to me; call me inquisitive, or bothersome, or both. :wink:

16

If I understand what you are calling the “prayer”, that is, accepting Jesus into your heart as Lord. I believe it will be necessary for you to go back to the beginning of the Protestant movement, or some years thereafter. John Calvin, I believe was one of the founders of this prayer. I read about this, but it has been many years ago.

As for Hell, all religions, with the exception of fundies are beginning to downplay the importance of hell. Pope John Paul II sent a letter to the Bishops asking them to do this. I read the letter several years ago. In my opinion this is a move in the right direction. Quit trying to scare people into the churches. Not to mention that it doesn’t work very well any more.

Since near death experiencers are targets of the fundies as well as the skeptics, I wrote a small thing pointing out the contradictions of the prayer.

http://www.aleroy.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=39

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The point I’m making is how many believing absolutely in THE PRAYER! as necessary to be SAVED! If you don’t know what I’m talking about, lucky you! Read this recent post about how these types and their ministers believed the POPE HIMSELF IS BURNING IN HELL AT THIS MOMENT B/C HE DIDN’T RECEIVE JESUS AS PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOR! They don’t just believe what Paul says in Romans as I wrote above- Confess him with your mouth, believe he’s raised, and you’re saved- they full out believe ya gotta receive him into your heart as personal lord and savior.

They usually quote Revelations- ‘I stand at the door and knock’- as a symbol of how we must let Jesus into our hearts, not just confess him with our mouths and believe in him. This is in direct contradiction to APOSTLE FREAKIN’ PAUL!

18

In that post you point out that “There is no verse in the Bible that clearly states the salvation doctrine.” That’s exactly what I and so many others are making a point about. And with that sword in hand (and many others), we should actively seek to undermine the faith and evangelism of Christians around us.

19

Within law :wink:

20

There is no Hell described in scripture.