Actually, I’m a devout Episcopalian and I’m probably at least as offended by that notion as you are. I don’t consider myself “born again” in the sense that some evangelical types do; on the other hand, I’m not entirely joking when I say that my relationship with Jesus is so personal He’s been known to interfere in my love life!
I’ve got some ties to the local pagan community through a good friend who’s a Fundamentalist Christian turned Atheist turned Wiccan (marvelous fellow for discussing religion with!). As a result, I know some people who’ve been turned away from Christianity by the actions of Christians. I refuse to accept the notion that God would condemn someone to an eternity of suffering because he didn’t become a Christian while welcoming the very person who put him off Christianity. It seriously offends my sense of justice and, if God isn’t just, then I can’t see the point of believing in Him.
I’ve had profound religious experiences, including one which saved my life when I was nearly completely catatonic with depression. If I’d grown up in a different religious context, perhaps I would have considered that the moment I “found Jesus”. On the other hand, I refuse to say I wasn’t a Christian before then; among other things, it would be a grave disservice to the kids I taught in Sunday School. Also, a key part of that religious experience was my denomination’s Eucharistic Prayer, the one said before partaking of bread and wine as part of Communion, the Lord’s Table, or whatever you want to call it. If I hadn’t heard that prayer tens of thousands of times before, it wouldn’t have had the power to reach me when nothing else would, including the touch and concern of a man I loved deeply.
I’ll also add, by the way, that I was born in England, grew up in Pennsylvania, and lived in Hawaii for several years. It wasn’t until I started hanging out here and at a Christian message board that I became aware of things like the Sinner’s Prayer and the way people will try to bludgeon others with it. It does seem limited to certain parts of the United States, and, frankly, I’m glad I don’t live in one of them!
I had never really noticed those scriptures in Acts. Your assimption isn’t completly baseless. A couple of passages in Acts 4 does not a fortune nor and conclusion make.
Of course if you take those passages as historicaly accurate you must also believe the miraculous healings and the angel that got them out of jail in chapter 5. No you say? Kinda screws your arguement doesn’t it?
Haveing some understanding of how mankind seems to work and after studying a little about church history it makes sense that certain men were eager to use the name of JEsus to line there pockets and control others. You see that pattern repeated in other religions. Take a look at LDS. There doesn’t seem to be any evidence that the original twelve were out to make a bundle but it’s not impossible that some of them, or the ones who followed them, were corrupted by the possibilities.
Seriously, thanks for pointing them out. I’ve done some reading about how and why certain books were selected to be in the Bible. The example in chapter 5 about the couple killed for lieing about the amount of money is pretty offensive but I can see why the early church would want to keep it.
There are lots of great spiritual people {Christians and otherwise} who had had real encounters with Christ. There’s been plenty of bad things done in the name of religion, but I believe that evil people have found and would continue to find other ways to justify their greed even if religion didn’t exist.
Tribal division isn’t just a by product of different religions. True spirituality teaches that there is no division. We are all children of God. Take a look at figures like Gandhi,and Martin Luther King. Take a look at our own Declaration of Independence.
Your comment assumes that every spiritual belief is false. God cannot be proved or disproved. If God is, then getting rid of religion won’t really solve much, unless we get rid of organized religion and replace it with a real and more sincere form of worship. Alas it’s taken 2000 years since Christ to make the meager progress we have. There’s a long way to go
When you’re looking for people to blame for the end of the world don’t leave out the incredible greed and dishonesty of the military industrial complex.
If one is to take the Bible Literally then the world would have ended before the 2d century. When the Apostles asked Jesus when the world would end,and what were the signs he said"This generation will not pass away until all these things are accomplished". That generation, and other generations had passed… The church father’s decide some centuries later when they gathered the writings that were to be called the word of God, that there must be a differant meaning to generation as the world had not ended. They did not know at that time, that the only close star was our sun, and if it came closer to earth it would be too hot for life to exist.
I’m not a Rapturist- I began my active Christian faith at age 13 in 1975 as one, but I abandoned it in the mid-80s. Right now. I’m mostly historic premillenialist (Christ will return to defeat the AntiChrist forces & establish a 1000-year Earthly Kingdom before Earth is swallowed up into Heaven, no Rapture beforehand) with some leanings to preterism (much Biblical “end of the age” prophecy was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD & Christ reigns over human history now gradually bringing all humanity into faith & obedience to Him).
BUT if in the next minute, the Trumpet sounds & I zip off to Heaven before AntiChrist is loosed on the world, I won’t gripe either.
Depends on the definition of Heaven- I believe it’s both a place/dimension beyond this realm, but it can also be a relationship of harmony with Him in this realm.
Focusing however on the place/dimension beyond aspect of Heaven, I rephrase your question-
If God is everywhere, including on Earth, then isn’t Earth everywhere…?
Of course not. God may be everywhere- Heaven, China, America, Alpha Centauri- but China, America, & Alpha Centauri aren’t everywhere. Nor does Heaven as the locale need to be everywhere.
If God is everywhere, he would have to be everything. There is no way that anything can be everywhere at the same time unless it is everything. In order for God to be both on earth and in heaven at the same time God would have to be earth and heaven. The word God has many meanings to different people. God is a noun(person, place or thing) depends on how you choose to see it. The word God means existance to me. Before a being could exist, there would have to be a place for God to be, then God would have to be place and being.
I agree, God is in every thing, not a separate being. When Jesus was accused of blasphmey,he referred to the 82d Psalm (81st in Catholic versions)" Why do you say I blaspheme because I call God my father when your father’s did?"John 10
The Psalmist asked.“Don’t you know you are Gods, sons of the most high” Jesus never thought of himself as different from other men. He always said, I go to my father and yours, and almost always referred to himself,others, and God in this way.
To me God is what is, as Genesis says, Moses asked God," who are you"? The reply was I am what is.
Thanks for the scripture reference. I wasn’t aware of that Psalm.
I have friends and family who are wonderful people and Christians. What disturbs me is an attitude of seperation from God. Even though they believe in Jesus and the Holy Spirit, the belief seems to remain seperate from God. When JEsus says I am in the Father and the Father in me" or “I and my father are one” I doubt they would see that as applying to everyone.
So, thanks for that reference. I try to find support for alternative beliefs in the Bible because of how most Christians look at that book. If something is presented as an alternative belief without a Biblical reference then it’s usually dismissed. If there is actually a scripture supporting it then I hope it is at least given some consideration and might cause some rethinking. ONe of the biggest barriers I find is “you mean most of my friends at church are wrong?”
In my beliefs I think people use what is helpful for them to live their lives, they do not have to believe as, or what I do. What one studies,was taught,or life experiances help them decide their beliefs and for them it is the right belief.as long as they do not try to push their beliefs on me I am okay with it unless it is harmful to others. I would fight for a person’s right to believe as they wish,if their belief doesn’ harm others,and it helps them to live a better life.
Yeah, our spiritual walk is very personnel and no one can say what is “right” for someone else. It’s about the individual chooseing when to let go of of old ways and follow the spirit. There has to be a certain reverence for their free will.
Ultimately there is the truth, which I hope is where we’re all headed. Otherwise how can we be free? Certain beleifs concern me because they maintain division among people and the view of our seperation from God. Such as “If you don’t agree with my interpertation of the Bible, you’re going to hell” When the opportunity presents itself I’m willing to challenge the beliefs of others in a way that hopefully causes them to think things over and consider the possibility that another belief might be just as legitimate as theirs and maybe their view can change without constituting blasphmy.
Scripture helps. If I can point out verses that support a less traditional view then perhaps they’ll consider that something isn’t nessecarily “God’s will” simply because it’s a widely accepted doctrine. The rest is beween them and God.
I believe that Hell was called a place of fire,because people saw mountians erupt and thought inner world fas a place of fire for the dammed, and heaven a place for the good was in the sky. I imagine seeing cloud formations that looked like cities had them believing Heaven was up in the clouds.
