I don’t see that that’s applicable. The effects of Chavez’ actions on American interests has been pretty negligible.
I will just say that the relationship between the Democratic Party establishment and actual liberals changed rather substantially as a result of Johnson’s war. Reaching back to Johnson or further isn’t quite like referring to the GOP as the Party of Lincoln, but it’s headed in that direction.
The fact that under harsh and painful circumstances we held our nose and allied with the less-bad option does not mnean we will be friends when the mutual threat vanishes. I can assure you that if some similarly-existential threat to all humanity showed up, we coudl ally with Very Bad Men again. let’s say Evil Aliens showed up a la whatever campy sci-fi you like. Yes, under those circumstances I would ally with the Sovs (were they still around), or even North Korea. And you will note that msot fo the countries allied with have followed a better path because of our influence. Oppose the worst, pressure the best.
“If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons.” - WInston Churchill.
?
Bolding Mine.
If you mean to say that Mugabe has ruled Zimbabwe since the 80’s, well, that’s true, but so what? In that time, he’s utterly destroyed his country’s economic base and reduced a once-thriving land with a rbight democratic future to a poverty-stricken tyranny. And Chavez might well manage the same feat (he’s certainly well on the way). So I’m a little confused as to how “time” is in anyway a good thing for Venezualans.
If you mean to say that Hugo Chavez has ruled Venezuala since the 80’s, you are incorrect. After failing a coup attempt, he went to jail (and was ultimately pardoned). He gained the Presidency in '99, and has moved rather unpleasantly towards tyranny. He may well control all the elections now and can probably put in anything he wants.
Iran didn’t. Iraq didn’t, pre-invasion. And Chile ultimately followed a better path despite of our influence. But, even granting that as a general rule, the implication is that now we should ally with Venezuela, yes?
Hell, we didn’t ally with the less-bad option then. Inevitably, when there was a choice, we chose to be on the side of the guy who was the ruling elites’ guy, and we let the Communists support the guy who was on the side of the people who were struggling to survive.
As you note, “[most of] the countries allied with have followed a better path because of our influence.” Exactly: we’d have done better if we’d supported the other guys to begin with.
And today, of course, hardly anyone is supporting al-Qaeda, so we’ve got a great degree of latitude to support good guys and oppose bad guys. But it’s certainly not how Bush played it.
If it’s taking Guy 1 a long time to achieve a bad result, and Guy 2 is supposedly pursuing the same path, only more slowly, then it stands to reason that Guy 2 may never get close to the same destination.
You confuse propganda with fact. And I have seen you repeatedly fall for this kind of nonsense. I would like to help out poor peasants, too. However, I am not stupid enough to offer them help by putting a deranged psychotic with dreams of world domination in power. And that’s an optimistic appraisal of the Communists. My real regard for them is much, much lower.
I’ve seen you advance this idea before. WHat you are missing, because you never considered the gruesome facts, was that those Communists cvalimed to be doing something they did not, in fact, actually do. There is not one country on the planet wehere open or covert Communist rule helped people. In every single instance, the supposed “protectors of the people” massacred, impoverished, and tormented those they constantly extolled in public. There are no exceptions anywhere.
Think about that, and how that fits in with your ridiculous thesis. We supported unpleasant men who on some level cared about their nations generally. We opposed wide-eyed idealists willing to burn their nation to the ground if it was convenient, or lucrative, or fun for them.
I’m sorry, but when you’re Saving Throw is to say, 'Hey, this guy might not be as bad as Robert Mugabe," you’ve lost.
You have a genius for euphemism.
No, I said unpleasant and I often meant it. They were often petty tyrants, but they also lived in relatively hard lands, where society had not much changed since ancient times. Killing was an acceptable way of politics in much of the world, or at least the normal way. In their societies, they were often faced with the bitter choice of killing or allowing anarchy (or far worse tyrannies) to take over.
That hasn’t totally changed, but it is hopefully changing. But always remember that Civilization is a thin veneer on brutal power-grabbing, held in place only fopr so long as humanity chooses for it to remain there. In some lands, such as the Middle East, the venee has worn thing in spots.
(Ok, I do have a bit of the odd dry wit.)
In light of all that, then, you will understand perfectly why all the abuses (truly or falsely) attributed to Hugo Chavez do not change the fact that he is far and away the best president Venezuela has ever had (not that that sets the bar very high).
Yeah, I’m just gonna hafta disagree with you one eensy bit on that.
Oh, I almost forgot.
Here is a partial list of things I would vote for over Hugo Chavez:
:dubious: With my estimation of Chavez, perhaps – but not, I should hope, with the principle that the “It’s the Third World and you have to make allowances” defense, if it applies at all, applies with equal force to leaders and regimes at all points of the political spectrum/compass.
Why do conservatives have a problem with free speech? We all know that Idi Amin was a crazy man. Do you think if someone says something not bad about him, thousands of people will immediately convert to his camp? Do you fools think a bunch of people are rethinking the “Jackal”? Chavez is playing you like the emotional children you are. It is about nothing. Chavez is playing with you because it is so easy to do. He would quit if you ignored him. But you are just so angry ,that tweaking you a little will get the reaction he seeks. Calm down and learn to laugh when he speaks. Then he will quit.
I don’t make allowances for the Third World. It’s not where you are that matters. That said, I do allow for the fact that there are a great many ugly people in this world and sometimes the only way to protect those worth protecting is to makte sure ebveryone knows who carries the gun. It’s same whether its the policeman or El Presidente: the same responsibility and the same power. I do not excuse hard deeds, but neither can I automatically or reflexively condemn them. They must stand ont heir won when done.
The Good Man is often far more terrifying to his enemies than the Evil One. Regardless of the terror the Nazis spread, we not only conquered them but erased their stain from history entirely, while utterly transforming the culture they spread. The Nazis killed people, but we destroyed entire concepts of thought. Which of these is more destructive?
Gonzo, of course, is beneath comtempt.
When Chavez speaks and it hits the news, I think, is that asshole at it again. He is just playing you kids. I am amused that he tries so hard. I am even more amused that he can tweak so many peoples immaturity. Grow up. Chavez is nothing unless you make him a big deal. Ignore him and he will quit. But you kiddies just get so mad. That means he will do it again. And you will wail at the things he says, again and again.
He will probably praise Manson next.
He’s the president/wannabe dictator of a country with 27 million people. I’d say that makes his lunacy a big deal.
What are you going to do about it? Do you think Americans whining about the things he says makes him less popular. He gets you people mad and you scream. His people like that very much. You are helping him.
Chavez threads should really go in the Pit. They’re nothing but cheap, plain wrap RO.
If you don’t want to talk about things unless you can make a difference, then you’re in the wrong place. This is a forum, it is intended for talking about things, some of which are far less significant than Chavez. So take your hypocritical junior modding elsewhere.
Give him time. He has the wonderful oppportunity to become an even greater tyrant.
And Sean Penn et al are given far too much press time to spout their ill-conceived lefty crap. if the left wing blogosphere really do ignore them then I wish it would trickle down into the mainstream media.
Defending him??? Wow. I just pointed out he says imflamatory things to piss you off. You are showing how well it works. You pay attention to him when you should laugh him off and ignore him. That does require a bit of maturity though.