When I used to take the Boston to Newark shuttle, the 3 papers they offered were the NY Times, the WSJ, and the Financial Times. It is not a tabloid. Perhaps you considered the Watergate stories muckraking also.
That word does not mean what you seem to think it means.
Thank you. It should be noted that this is about the first post in this thread focusing on what should be focused on - the behavior of the men, not the women.
It appears that the security guards were busy making sure that the women were available to the men - and not doing anything about the behavior of the men.
And they wonder why we have a problem.
In English-speaking countries, strip-clubs are very woman-controlled. Like most places, the lady sets the pace and the limits and like in most places they secretly are laughing at the guys.
I have not encountered a non-English-speaking culture that sets these limits. Most anything like a strip club (as in the Spanish-speaking world) are simply bordellos. As a result I have little experience with them.
Thanks, but I actually made the same point in post 6 and was just ignored. This thread is focused on basically whether the women knew that they were going to be harassed and groped and not on the more important question: what the fuck is wrong with men like these that need to grope and harass women who are only there for a paycheck? If you need to exert your sexual and economic dominance over working class women, you’re a pretty fucked up individual and if you’re a political or cultural elite, it’s not just your problem anymore.
I mean, I think both questions are interesting, but the fucked-uppedness of the dudes is not really in dispute. If the women knew what they were getting into , the criminal charges against the event organizers and participants should be different from the criminal charges those parties should face if the women didn’t know.
I’m not so sure I agree with you, there are posters here who seem to find the behavior acceptable if the women agreed to it. I’m not seeing a lot of examination about how their attitudes towards women might be shaping their business practices or influence on public policy.
I am comfortable with legal prostitution and things like woman-controlled strip clubs. However, I don’t think women should be allowed to sell their right to say “no”, any more than I think people should be allowed to sell themselves into slavery. That’s what the “inalienable” in “inalienable rights” means.
So even if the girls were told “Men are going to grope you and proposition you and expose themselves to you, and if you ever discourage that or set limits on that, from anyone there, you’ll be sent home immediately”, I’d still consider it a crime and the sort of thing the law shouldn’t allow.
If the women agreed to it, I’m inclined to think it should be legal–although I’m not locked into that position. Whether or not they agreed to it, I find the behavior of the organizers, and of the men who knowingly participated, repugnant.
Hmm. There are a lot of jobs where you agree to do something as a condition of employment, and while you can change your mind at any moment, the consequence of changing your mind is that you lose the job. That’s not selling your right to say “no,” nor is it equivalent to slavery.
Sex is qualitatively different from other human activities like cooking or teaching, so I can see why sex work might require different parameters. I’m just not convinced this is necessarily one of them.
I don’t think I made the argument that anything illegal happened, and the OP asked if there “was anything wrong” with such an event. In my opinion there was plenty wrong with it and I’ve stated why.
I think we agree–see the second sentence of the post whose first sentence you quoted.
I wasn’t saying we weren’t, I just want to disentangle legality from morality.
Huh. Although I know the word “morality” is slippery, I think legality and morality need to be entangled. Some things–tricking people into sex work–are so immoral that they should be illegal. Other things–hiring people to do degrading sex work and reveling in the power differential that allows you to do so–are pretty freakin’ immoral, but I’m not sure that the benefits of outlawing them outweigh the harms. Does that make sense?
But ultimately I’m not sure the number of angels on this pinhead is worth arguing, so if it’s irritating I can drop it :).
The event went on for 30 years or so. Never have any other complaint come forward. Most hostesses say they “look forward” to this event. Every person who attended the even and was willing to be quoted said they had never seen anything like what the reporter came up with, like men exposing themselves. The one hostess who was interviewed gave testimony quite in variance with what the reporter said happened, especially in degree.
So, the reporter seems to have greatly exaggerated or taken out of context what occured.
Why would I have a bias here? I was not an attendee.
Becuase a couple of men were jerks, maybe jerks becuase they were drunk, but jerks nonetheless. And a certain number of men*, no matter the economic status are jerks.
- and a few women too, of course.
It depends on the behavior. I’d say I wouldnt have any issue with hand holding, if consentual, for example.
Public ass grabbing is not Ok. Those guys* were jerks.
- we know of only one, but there were quite possibly more.
Good job on getting something right!
False–the interview was separate from the article, and the police have received complaints.
False. Most hostesses have not commented.
False. Watch the interview.
False, in the way that the blind man who describes the elephant as a spear is wrong.
False, because all your premises are false.
But again, I want to commend your for getting that one thing right at the beginning of your post. Good job, DrDeth, and I encourage you to keep struggling toward accuracy. Instead of looking at it as five out of six sentences wrong, look at it as one sentence right, which means you’re well on your way!
There’s more there.
I wonder if these guys spouses knew what kind of party it was.
Time does not make it right. How long did Weinstein’s abuse go on?
That dude on the right is really fucking short.