I fail to see what your problem is Sparc. If you believe that I have maligned this mother’s character by suggesting her motive seeking her son’s martyrdom might be financial rather than racial hatred, then I suggest we just have different moral codes. If you believe that the financial motive is a non starter, then I remind you that the families of suicide bombers in Palistine are well looked after by Hamas .
How I have marginalized the victims by insinuating a financial motive on the part of the mother is completely incomprehensible to me.
I guess we do then. I can understand (note that this is not the same as condone) someone for being irrational enough to feel that a group of others are a threat worthy to die for while combating, I cannot even begin to understand the absolute egotism involved in killing randomly purely for money.
One is sacrifice for personal gain while the other is sacrifice for a perceived greater good, however much that is an error (see my previous post).
Sparc, for the general sanity of this thread, please don’t lump “Zionist Jews” together with Fundamentalist Muslims and Christians, let alone Nazi. Ultra-Zionists, fine. But by maligning Zionists as a whole you are demonizing the vast majority of the Jewish population of Israel, as well as the largely reasonable group of men and women who founded the country. I know that as a neo-European you see nationalism as the root of all evil, but you should bear in mind that not everyone thinks that way. OK?
Sparc, (and not to focus on you, but nobody else has picked up the gauntlet )
I don’t think you understand the difference in, for example, the Nazis and the Palestinian terrorists.
The Nazis, even at their most desperate, recoiled from the thought of suicide attacks. Even when they developed a manned version of the V-1 (an early cruise missle), they included a parachute, since they full well expected the pilot to attempt to save his own life. Of course, everyone involved knew that there was a good chance the pilot would die, but they didn’t have the pilots death as a goal of the operation.
The Palestinian terrorists have no such ‘parachute’. The very goal of their operations is to die, killing as many Jews as possible in the process.
Fo you see the difference? The Palestinians are not accepting death as a possible outcomel; They are encouraging it as the ONLY outcome. Like I said, apart from Japanese kamikaze pilots, this is extraordinarily rare.
Even Nazi moms did not want their children to die. Contrast that to Palestinian parents encouraging their (often young) children to become terrorists.
Oh dear Alessan aren’t we getting a little carried away now? I think that you’ll need to insert ultra in front of every one single sample in that list (save the Nazis and perhaps the Stalinists). As far as I am concerned it is OK to be any of the above axcept the two I just parenthesized, since it doesn’t automatically give that an adherent any of them is intolerant. I said;
I did not say ‘have consistently’, ‘have always’ or ‘do’. Did I?
For that matter all of the above denominations have founded nations for better and/or worse. My home nation as well as the home nation of the majority of the board is the result of one of the groupings (fundamentalist Christians for the lazy of mind).
Care to argue Nationalism as a good idea? Needs for a new thread, but hell I’ll give you opposition if you like. Wouldn’t it be kind os a walk-over for me though?
Last but not least, try to avoid calling me a ‘neo-European’ in the future. If you must pigeon hole me I prefer the epithet moderate conservative federalist, since it fits better. Neo-European has the same ring as neo-con which I despise.
My mistake, Sparc. I inferredd from your post that you believed that it was somehow wrong to be a Zionist, and that my countrymen and I should be ashamed of what we are. Obviously, I was mistaken.
And no, I do not want to discuss Nationalism with you. What would be the point?
As for the first; I might very well understand the difference, try me.
As for the second; By the skin of your teeth you avoid this problem in your first statement and then you fall right into the trap. You managed do distinguish Palestinian terrorists from Palestinians in general, but then you got the Nazis all mixed up with the Germans in general. The analogy might be fair through guilt of support and association (I don’t think so, but hell who am I to set the degrees in hell). Try comparing Hamas to the SA and on top you might want to avoid dragging the test pilots of the Luftwaffe into the discussion. You might find that the willingness to die for ‘the cause’ is a tad bit higher amongst the polar extremists in both cases.
Sparc
PS So sorry for the poor spelling. missed out words and what-not in the previous post, it’s the wine and there is much truth in it. but little quality. DS
However horrible the thought Someone like me, I do believe you have hit the nail spot on the head. Further, there seems to be a tendency towards accusation of guilt by support and association on both sides as is usual when two cultures clash as badly as our brothers and sisters in Israel have.
Someone like me, Sparc: That’s the same argument ObL makes for killing civilians. Citizens of the U.S. support the the government both directly ( by voting for it ) and indirectly ( by paying taxes to it ) which makes them de facto combatants, rather than civilians ( and of course ObL and his brethren eregard themselves in a war with the “west” ). Very tortured reasoning, but it is a line of thinking among the most radicalized and militant Islamists-Salafists, like those found in groups such as Hamas and al-Qaeda.
Sigh…Can you give me ONE example of a Nazi suicide attack? SA or SS? And I don’t mean a attack with desperate odds. I mean operations in which suicide was part of the desired outcome.
There is no historical parallel to what is going on in Israel. None. (A vague parallel is present with the kamikaze attacks, but even that falls far short.)
Oh but Tamerlane you didn’t seriously believe that I was inferring that this was sound reasoning, or did you? If it came across as if I was I’ll point out that I don’t. I think it’s absolute idiocy and utterly condemnable.
Fact remains that this is how the reasoning to justify terror often goes as you yourself point out with your example of Osama and his cohorts.
Just because I point to a phenomena doesn’t mean that I associate with or support it. Does it now?
Have you received a less than healthy thump on the head lately Brutus?
You’re the one who told me I didn’t know what the difference was between Nazis and Palestinian suicide bombers, when I never even said anything like that in the first place. Read the post that I suspect you’re getting the idea that I did and you’ll find this sentence in it:
Where on earth did you get the idea that I thereby said that all the ideologies that in some way embrace eschatology and happen to have used this belief as a foundation for violence have been involved in suicide bombings? Justifying self-sacrifice at absurd levels is not synonymous with blowing yourself to pieces although that is one form of it obviously.
I didn’t even start debating your unfounded ideas of what I think is the similarities or not between Palestinian suicide bombers and Nazis, instead I chose to just inform you that I think I do know the difference. On the other hand I pointed out the mule-headed thickness of arguments like yours that sweepingly drag whole nations and/or inconceivably large groups of incredibly varied peoples into the acts of terror perpetrated by some people amongst them. You didn’t respond to that but ask me again to justify something I never said???
Are you arguing for the sake of argument or what?
Further, independent of what I happen to know about Nazism in fact I think that just through benefit of the doubt do I deserve to not be accused of not understanding what a Nazi is, sir!
Of course not :). Just pointing out the connection, because it has been brought up before ( by yours truly, anyway ) in relation to the 9/11 bombing.
I would expect most sane, logical people, wouldn’t fall for such a fanatical take on things. Fanatics like ObL, of course, not being particularly sane in my book.
I generally extend a slightly higher standard to you and most of the posters around here ;).
For one, Israel does not have M-1 tanks (we use our own Merkavas which, IMHO, are superiour weapon systems) and Bradleys (do not fit our doctrine, and anyway have received mediocre reviews). Most of our missiles and smart bombs are locally made - Israel is considered one of the world’s leaders in missile technology - and all of our nukes were built by our own scientists (yeah, I know - who ever heard of a Jewish nuclear physicist?)
For another, if we really wanted to “crush” the Palestinians, there wouldn’t be a single one alive between the Jordan and the Sea.
I have been lurking and so far efrem, Sparc and Someone like me (bit long ,eh?) have made the most sense (although Sparc may have gone a little over board on Brutus). A few things.
As I see it the OP was about an attack on a military target, that isn’t happy, but it isn’t shocking or new. The rest of the thread has mostly been about suicide bombings etc. Correct me if I am wrong but most of the posters here would be OK with any mother being proud if her son was A) was going on an impossibly risky, but technically not suicide, mission, and B) it was against military a target. (the fact that the article mentioned in the OP was about a military target is not what I think is being debated here).
First off, if you don’t want civilians to be killed, go live in the land of lollipops and pixie dust, because I am pretty sure that is the only place that they don’t get killed. We have done it, they have done it, that is one of the reasons life is really crappy for most people. And if you start some stupid crap about war was some honorable thing between warriors, run along to the Renaissance Fair. Humans have been killing each other en masse without regard to job description for quite some time, yes sometimes we just limit the fight to soldiers, but not enough to make some kind of natural law about it. (to be honest my history is weak, I may be full of crap on that one)
Second off, if I believe that I will go to the land of lollipops and pixie dust if I die killing Jews, then strap on the TNT cuz I am going to go die killing some Jews. I would expect my whole family to be damn proud…(Kind of an aside here, why is it that everyone always wants to kill the Jews? I like most Jews I meet…) Of course that is a messed up belief system, but no more illogical (although obviously with much greater negative impact) than the ugly, stupid guy who I work with who thinks he is smart and good looking (and by ugly I mean that no-chin-lower-lip-connected-directly-to-the-chest thing).
Now excuse me while I go live of the sweat of the exploited children dying in OSHA violating sweatshops and pesticide ridden crop fields all over the world. While I am at it I am going to buy my fat ass a ticket on an airplane and force the people around me to deal with my gut spilling onto there folding tray-table…oops wrong thread. :smack:
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rjung *
**
I agree with you that killing innocents is nothing to be proud of. However, I suspect that the suicide bomber’s family does not see his targets as innocents – so, in their mind, their child’s sacrifice is no different than a soldier who is killed while fighting enemy soldiers.
Such horrific moral relativism! How can anyone be on the side of the murderers in this case! rjung, you are a nut!
Seriously, most serial killers probably think their work is ok in ‘their mind’.
That’s true. And you made a good choice of the word, “Palestinians”, because there would still be “Arabs” left.
Also, I think you have raised a good point which is relevant to the topic of this thread.
Why is it that Israel has not taken the “all-or-nothing” its “us-or-them” “fight-to-the-death” approach to this conflict that the Palestinians have?
Because a major part of the Zionist dream is to take out place among the nations of the world. This means being at peace with our neighbors.
Whatever the reason(s) is(are), part of the reason that we are so appalled by the pride of the Palestinian mother is that she is expressing these genocidal, “us-or-them” beliefs against a people that hold nothing of these views about her people and have proven it by NOT destoying them, decade after decade, despite a steady escalation of violence, accompanied by declarations of the intent to thro us into the sea from the Palestinian side.
akohl writes:
"first of all, even if he did attack soldiers, those soldiers were posted defensively, to protect civilians from attack. To attack the soldiers, is a way of getting at the civillians. "
Well, I do not know what kind of logic this is?
That nobody should attack civilians, on that I think we all are more or less thinking in the same line.
but in a war, you are supposed to destroy the other army.
Naturally You could go and ask first the solidiers what they are doing just now and then decide: “Should I shoot them or not?”
Or do You see this like a computer-game with specific rules?
And those who are moving to areas that are occupied, not a part of Israel. What are they?
Innocent civilians that do not know what they are doing?
How temporary are the houses?
Do these builders have weapons?
What would You do if an army would come inside Israel and there would come new settlers with them. And the government of those intruders would tell You that everything is just temporary?
)