I just don’t get it. I don’t understand the mentality. How can someone say the means by which the Palastinians want to achieve there goals are justified? I read this story and it almost made me sick. When can ANYONE justify killing women and children. And I’m sick of this “Well they started it” crap. IMHO, there is no way Israeli tanks would be in the palastinian controlled Gaza and West Bank areas if there weren’t these senseless attacks. And then I read this story and I feel like vomiting. And I thought Tyson was a bad role model. What in the world is going on here? How can this be justified?
BTW, I am not saying the Israelis are 100% innocent in all this. I think there has been excessive force used on occasion. But if this was your coountry, could you blame them?
The bombers bomb because they hate Israel coming into “their” territory.
Israel comes in because the bombers bomb.
It’s a chicken and egg conundrum and both sides think they came first. But FTR, I won’t argue with you. You’re right. Palestinian suicide bombers have no excuse.
I do blame the Israelis, and I say this as somebody who has very strong sympathies and feelings for the Jewish people. It is pretty clear, though, that Israeli tanks would be in the Gaza and WB despite the suicide bombers.
That said, I definitely oppose suicide bombing. Killing civilians is one of the most despicable acts a country can incur upon another. That is why I despise the 911 terrorist attacks, why I despise the US’ involvement in Afghanistan (and dozens of other places), and why I despise the Palestinian suicide bombers.
The ‘means’ are always important, especially when you are fighting for an ideal. That is why the phrase “by any means necessary” sends chills up my spine. Whatever the conflict, the death of innocent civilians should never be tolerated.
But how come we seem to tolerate the US’ killing of civilians around the globe while demonizing the Al Qaeda and Palestinians? Are the ‘acceptable methods’ different for each organization/country?
Who says they need an excuse? The Israelis have made it clear that their country is not going to live, so they’ve decided that if their going to die, it’s worth it to take some Israelis with them.
Is the active death of a few innocent people always worse than the passive death of many? For example, let’s imagine that there is a brutal dictatorship ruling some country, which due to corruption and mismanagement is now facing mass starvation. The government doesn’t care and doesn’t want to do anything about it. The U.S. can intervene, invading the nation, toppling the government, and thereby saving millions of lives. But, as in any war, there will be unfortunate civilian casualties. Is it more moral to let millions starve or accidentally kill thousands to save far more lives?
Do you equate all accidental deaths with their intentional counterparts, or just those committed in war? Is the driver who accidentally runs over a pedestrian and kills him as morally (and legally) culpable as the one who intentionally drives his car into a crowd with the intent to kill? If not, then why is the accidental killing of civilians in war on par with intentionally targeting civilians?
Aren’t likenesses of humans considered blashemous in Islam?
sqweels:
The Israelis have done no such thing.
Even if the country won’t live, that’s not the same thing as the individuals dying.
Colinito67
Because the US is not intentionally targetting civilians, and Al Qaeda is. Not all homicide is murder. (PS: my understanding is that “the Al Qaeda” is redundant")
Since Palestine doesn’t exist you must be right. How destroy something that isn’t? Then again, what was it the Likud assembly decided and what was it that Sharon said the other day? What is it that those settlers are doing once again? By the Israeli book Oslo is obviously only the capital of Norway.
A little one sided as far as balanced commentary goes, don’t you think Monty?
My god, the Palestinians have virtually nothing. They live in a damaged, unrecognised country peppered over with illegal settlements. They have no proper army, normal everyday innocent Palestinians can’t even travel through their own territory without having to go through checkpoints, their infratstructure has been destroyed, they are absolutely desperate.
The current actions of the Israeli authority are wicked and oppressive beyond belief.
However I still have confidence that Sharon’s actions don’t have the full support of all Israelis, all Jews, or all Americans. I don’t believe that Ted Turner is a lone voice.
What I don’t have confidence in any more is that there is a future for Palestine. I increasingly belive the Israeli army under Sharon will continue their incursions, continue their illegal settlements, and take over the whole land. IF this happens, it will be geographical (if not actual) genocide.
NO, Sparc. I think you are intentionally painting the Palestinian terrorists as “nice guys.” They aren’t. They’re a bunch of wimps going around killing innocents.
Really? Well the israelis do know how to make a good joke. Untill you posted the above I was sure they did. Tel-Aviv must be a very funny place to live in.
The colonazation policy that was continued even when the israelis were negotiating with the palestinian tells me that they don’t want peace either. In my book Sharon = Suicide bomber.
There are not bad guys or good guys in this conflict there are hundreds of thousands of innocents and a minority (although a large one) of idiots (israelis and palestinian).
Brava, Istara! Could any of us, safe and comfortable in our luxurious homes, say that we wouldn’t attempt any means necessary against our oppressors if we were in the Palestinians’ position?
Here’s the deal. If Palestinians nutballs would stop walking into crowded civilian areas and blowing themselves, and others, to bits, I would be willing to bet that the tanks would eventually leave, that infrastructure would spring up, and the goal of a Palestinian state could maybe be pushed for legally.
But everytime the nutjobs blow up a cafe or bus, they are giving the Isreali’s the excuse they need to go in and get them. The Israeli’s are dealing with the same sort of problem American GI’s dealt with in Vietnam… how can you tell who the bad guy is? Is it the 17 yo kid with a palestinian flag on his wall? Is it the fundie Muslim who was been writing terrible things about Jenin and the Israeli’s? Is it the father of a dead PA guard who is distraught and horrified about his dead son?
It could be all of them, or none of them.
I wouldn’t want to be in the Israeli’s spot. I wouldn’t want to be in the Palestinians place either.
But the fact is that they have to be idiots if they haven’t figured out that the only thing they are getting with Suicide bombers is more heartache and violence for ‘their people’.
I totally take your point, Tristan. But the vicious circle thing of this situation is that the only thing the Israelis are getting with heavier military action and incursions and settlments is more suicide bombing. It’s chicken and egg, as someone mentioned. The Palestinians have nothing to lose, so they’ll fight until they die. The Israelis have lots to lose, so they’ll step up their military campaign.
Only bloodshed ahead on both sides. I am losing all hope.
I happen to think a lot of people on this board like to intentionally paint the Israeli government as “nice guys”. They aren’t. They’re a bunch of wimps going around killing, oppressing, colonizing innocents.
If can say something about one side the other side can double it, and so… This is a cycle people. Who can’t see this? Both sides need to stop for peace to resume, although all it could for peace to start would be the stopping of one side.
Haven’t we had this discussion already Monty? I’m not painting anyone in any lighter color. I was protesting against your one sided comment that implied that there is no movement on the Israeli side that is destructive towards the Palestinians.
I’m so fucking fed up with being demonized as pro terror, anti Israel or even anti-Semite for asking for some kind of goddamned balance in the commentary on this issue. I think suicide bombing is horrid. Get it? I think suicide bombing is utterly condemnable. Get it? I don’t think that makes angels out of the Israeli contingent who are opposed to all things Palestinian. who are enacting opression and feeding the violence with violence. I think they are condemnable too. Get it?
Dussins of times in debates on this issue have I been opposed with attacks insinuating I am a pro terror man or anti-Israel. Only twice with some kind of reason and when I clarified my stand I was then met with respect. Both times it was by Israeli members. The less talented part of the rabid pro Israel/anti Palestinian enclave outside Israel on the other hand seem to have sent their reason and reading skills on permanent vacation.
I suppose you could provide ignorant me a cite of an incident in which the state of Israel carried out an operation to kill noncombatant Palestinians?
We know that some Palestinians are carrying out terrorist attacks in which the aim is to kill as many Israelis as possible. Show me the flipside then. Show me the Israeli attacks that were launched to kill as many Palestinians as possible.
It’s not that simple as to say that it is a bunch of nut balls doing this. The conflict is so infected and has spiraled so far that the felt desperation is creating a whole new cadre of suicide bombers. Read this article from today’s NYT. I weep at the horror when I read it, but the girl in the interview and the Israeli security force’s stated decision to let her go without prosecution gives me some hope that there are still some reasonable people left in both camps.