The specifics aren’t really relevant.
Either Meghan presumed upon the relationship, transgressing boundaries with unwarranted assumptions of intimacy, or Kate et al. overreacted to a stupid comment.
Either way, some version of “whoa! uncool” + “Oh, geez, I’m really sorry” ought to have happened right away. Whatever the incident was, the resulting poor communication and overreactions were the actual problem.
I was able to find articles written by Dr Diane Farrar on this subject; her listed credentials are: RM, BSc health science, BSc psychology, PhD reproductive endocrinology.
She has observed it as real and I have no credentials to disbelieve her.
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That said imagine two young vibrant couples meet privately for a fun outing. One of the four is pregnant and vents to the others that during the pregnancy she has become forgetful.
Q: Is it rude to respond? Should people hold their tongues while others vent?
Is it friendly or nice to reassure the person who is pregnant that this is perfectly normal, possibly citing a book or article read indicating that this happens to much more than half of all women and that in all likelihood she’ll bounce back to her old self after she has her child?
Is it unpardonably rude to try to make someone feel better about something that worries her? Worries her enough that she just can’t help but blurt out about it? Or is the person who is pregnant so royally insulated that anything more that “Yes, your highness. No, your highness” is a transgression worthy of war in Europe?
It seems to me that Kate’s response was beyond the pale.
[Helena Bonham Carter] "Miss Markel…! How Dare you imply that my Royal Hiney and non-stink A̶w̶f̶u̶l̶ Offal Innards are the same as some… some… Commoners! You May Leave my Royal Presence…!
( Aside to William ) Off With Her Head…!" [/Helena Bonham Carter]
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Edited to add: Ninja’d by Cheesesteak
Except that was never the alleged comment. “Screwing with” is pretty caustic. You don’t think it could have been more friendly, less demeaning?
Most definitely. That’s what I took from the complaint about how it all went down. It wasn’t that Kate was offended, it was that there was a subsequent discussion where Megan was told that she was being presumptive by assuming that they were on close terms and that they needed to be more formal with each other at all times, instead of something approaching a more normal interaction amongst peers.
Kate couldn’t have just said something in the moment? She couldn’t have just let it go?
Additionally, I believe it came out that there was some riff about wedding dresses that led to crying. Except it was reported that Megan made Kate cry, when it was actually the opposite. Kate refused to set the record straight; that, plus the very fact that she made Megan cry suggests to me that Kate is pretty full of herself (recall that this was in anticipation of Megan’s wedding).
I can understand why Megan might be appalled by that attitude.
You’re still looking at it too much from your own cultural perspective. Not all circles accept “girl bonding” like this in every possible situation.
For example, in traditional Indian families there are clear hierarchies, mostly based on age and generational position.
Not even every “sister-in-law” is in the same position. It can matter whether it’s before or after the wedding, whether it’s your brother’s wife or your husband’s brother’s wife. It can matter which brother—older or younger? It can matter based on the relative ages.
It can, in many societies, matter how long you have known each other and how close you have gotten. There may be no way to short circuit that process prematurely.
What if it was like “I will always outrank you so you will always treat me deferentially no matter how many years pass”?
There are cultures like this, for sure. Traditional Chinese daughter-in-law & mother-in-law, for example.
I get that for a matriarch. For siblings (in-law)?
I’m not denying that Kate may have found it inappropriate and offensive, I’m just saying that it could plausibly be attributed to cultural misunderstanding rather than deliberate malice. In American families, the expectation is generally that family members are on close terms with one another and there is no rigid hierarchical structure. It is completely normal here for people to speak to family members they’ve just met in a much more intimate and personal way than they would to a non-relative they didn’t know well.
So either Kate overreacted, or she was deliberately trying to assert her dominant position in the hierarchy. Which may very well have been the correct thing to do from the cultural perspective of British royalty, but my perspective on it is “fuck that shit”.
What exactly do you consider “a more normal interaction amongst peers”? Even assuming Meghan intended it as something other than condescending, I don’t want people I barely know making comments about my health. We’re not friends (yet); we’re acquaintances who happen to be (or soon to be) related by marriage. There’s nothing to indicate that Kate wanted the two to be formal for ever and ever, merely that she didn’t think the relationship was on those terms at the time Meghan made the comment. Maybe it’s a British versus American thing, maybe just a matter of upbringing, or different experiences, but I don’t see that Kate is full of herself just because she’s not yet entered a close relationship with some other person. (I’m American, and I’m put off by Meghan’s apparent feeling that of course every woman wants to engage in “female bonding” right off the bat.)
When it’s somebody whose pregnancy status is unknown, there’s more room for ambiguity about intent. When it’s somebody whose pregnancy status IS known, there’s less room. If Meghan had been pregnant, I still don’t think it would necessarily have been OK given the known relationship between them, but it would have been easier to interpret as an attempt to bond over shared experiences. “This has happened to me, so we can share this” has a different flavor than “I’ve never been pregnant but I I’m still going to comment on what you are going through even though I have no experience of it.”
Meghan’s comment, as reported, contains no indication of reassurance or reference to any such books or articles.
The royals, as a matter of policy, don’t generally make any attempt to “set the record straight” about anything. It is EXTREMELY rare that the palace ever attempts to refute any story in the tabloids, so I would not read any ‘refusal’ into this. That’s just how they roll, and that’s one reason why the tabs are so vicious and so likely to report gossip real and imagined; it’s not going to be refuted officially.
(The argument was allegedly over whether or not Charlotte’s bridesmaid dress fit her; Kate told Meghan that the dress made Charlotte cry when she tried it on, leading to a testy exchange between Kate and Meghan. Is Kate “full of herself” for wanting her own daughter to feel good? Is Meghan, herself in the middle of dealing with her father’s situation right before the wedding, overly emotional and reacting badly? We don’t know the full story, and we won’t ever know the full story because Kate’s and Charlotte’s versions [and the actual text exchange] are unlikely ever to see the light of day.)
Yes, it can be. There may be some societies in which no two related people are ever equals. Especially if they are related by marriage.
And frankly I’d all that happened was what was reported, I see no problem with what happened. Catherine set her boundaries—you don’t know me well enough to make that okay. Very clear. Very fair.
Now that doesn’t mean I don’t think the royal family is a bunch of racist assholes and that Meghan doesn’t have legitimate grievances.
I’m just going by Moriarty’s statement that Kate “scolded” Meghan. But it is certainly possible and entirely appropriate to set boundaries without “scolding” someone, and perhaps that’s actually what happened.
Also it’s my understanding that in a Europe, intimacy happens much more slowly if at all.
I guess I kind of feel for Meghan.
When I was married, I loved my immediate in laws. Wife’s sister’s husband couldn’t be more different from me. He is a politically conservative mid-west country boy Christian who is into sports. I’m a liberal Jew from Los Angeles who does drugs and goes to concerts. We got along great and didn’t talk about politics and gave each other friendly shit about our differences.
The greater family was a different story. They definitely didn’t like that I am a long haired hippie Jewboy. They also resented that I kept breaking rules that I didn’t know and couldn’t possibly know. Like when I invite guests over, I do all of the work and they sit and enjoy themselves. For them, everyone is supposed to pitch in. It’s not that either one is objectively correct but if you want my help, just fucking ask. Don’t glare at me and then act all huffy. One of the aunts finally told me that I should help her husband out with something. I went up to him and asked if I could help and he said, “no”. I found out later that for some fucking reason you are supposed to ask a few times after a refusal. They resented that I hadn’t magically internalized a bunch of unwritten rules.
None of us can ever know the truth but it seems like more kindness and grace could have been granted to a newcomer who is effectively visiting another planet.
I know that it’s been stated time and again that his account is only one side and that “everyone knows” the nobility won’t respond.
So, I’m going to default to a character reference.
Barack Obama is an amazing person who doesn’t suffer fools and who doesn’t offer his friendship either often, or lightly. He and Prince Harry are close personal friends.
On that alone, I’m tempted to say where Piers Morgan and his ‘BS Machine’ can go stick a
dildo-shaped telephone pole.
Given that ms markle was an American, she would not know a lot about royalty and the importance of the rankings. The British royal family is very aware of who ranks where. the queen was very mindful and would give titles that would keep this one above that one.
All bow/curtsy to any majesty, hrh don’t usually bow/curtsy to each other, but if they do it is genetic over marriage.
Taking “hrh” away from Diana and Sarah knocked them way down the rank. They would be curtsying to nearly everyone including their children.
The story about first meeting with the queen, technically markle did not need to curtsy. She is a U.S. citizen. Harry should have explained how things go. Although as he was high up in the chain he probably didn’t even think about it. It is second nature to him.
From the sound of it, William is not going to be loosening things up.
I’m well prepared to agree to disagree, but this
Is appalling, in my opinion. I’m joining your family, but you don’t consider us friends until I’ve fulfilled some sort of predetermined probationary period where I have to earn your welcome? Fuck that.
How about giving me the benefit of the doubt? How about assuming friendship on the basis of the familial relationship, instead of withholding approval until such time as the other person has - what, exactly? Sucked up sufficiently?
And it’s not like this should have been some major breach of etiquette. Megan had the temerity to talk to Kate like she wasn’t perfect! She mentioned something as personal as her hormones! At a time when Kate was pregnant!
It’s ridiculous that Megan would have been criticized for it, even if it was somehow more explicit then Kate was used to.
Similarly
Strikes me as more whining from Kate. A woman is getting ready to get married, and her future sister-in-law (the one who has chosen to be cold) informs her that her toddler doesn’t like the dress she was given? And?? If Kate insisted that Charlotte wouldn’t participate, or wanted another dress, I don’t begrudge Megan for being upset. Most brides would be.
But, again, the issue was the fallout. It wasn’t just that Kate wouldn’t own up to the media misapprehension that she was the bully in this scenario; it was that there was no sympathy for Megan, or a sense that she was entitled to kindness and care.
At best, it sounds like she endured some weird hazing ritual. Arguably, though, she was just never accepted, and was never going to be.
It’s all culturally relative, but I believe that a large majority of Americans would strongly agree with you.
Well, I guess your culture is right and other people’s are just wrong, then.
Seriously: I’m going to be kind and polite to anyone I’m related to, by marriage or otherwise, but I’m not going to be friends with someone I don’t know, and I wouldn’t appreciate somebody presuming that we were on the basis of that connection. It’s not about earning a welcome, it’s about growing into a relationship. But I hope if someone with a radically different perspective married into the family, we could at least figure this out and find some common ground. I don’t want someone hurt and upset because they didn’t get the insta-besties they were expecting, but I don’t want my boundaries trampled, either.
I couldn’t care less about The Royal Family and pay little attention to them, but the impossible-to-ignore Harry/Meghan hoopla raises two points in my mind.
a) I was 47 when Diana was killed. What little I have read before and since then tells me she was treated despicably by TRF, essentially a very young, naive breedmare.
b) Has the question of Harry’s biological father ever been answered definitively? Because I wonder if there’s some aspect of “he’s not really Windsor blood” underlying the ongoing soap opera.
Those are your words, not mine.
I simply described how I would hope to be greeted by my future spouse’s family.
Do you think that a comment like “you must have baby brain if you’re forgetting things. Hormones will do that to you when you’re pregnant.” to be an overly familiar comment, only appropriate between friends? Does it strain the bounds of kind and polite banter? Does it matter if you hope to one day befriend this person, since you are soon to be related by marriage?