Pro Giuliani group co-chair says we should get rid of all Muslims

The BBQ Pit
41

I think they are in much smaller proportion than Islamists are to the rest of Islam. Remember Giuliani Partners biggest client was Qatar, and the Emir of Qatar just bought a large stake in it.

Because they are different. Rape is not murder, they are both evil, but not the same.

Except that Deady is an idiot who lost his job over what he said. Hitler was the leader of a nation who was able to accomplish his plans. You didn’t Godwinize. You didn’t compare the man to Hitler, you compared the Muslims to the Jews. I don’t care if you want to call the man a Nazi. Muslims are not oppressed in this nation. Victims of ethnocentrism, sure, but they are not being systematically annihilated.

No, I don’t think the analogy has to be perfect. In this case, it’s simply wrong. Jews: victims of a systematic attempt at genocide. Muslims: not the victims of a systematic attempt at genocide. Do you see what I’m trying to get at here?

No, but heads of state do call for it and in certain countries they have rallies advocating it openly. Can you please point out when the last time you saw a ‘Death to Islam’ rally in an American city? Also, I don’t think I am the only person who thought that you were implying a holocaust comparison.

All Nations have their sins, none is perfect, but we aren’t talking about the perfection of states, but a comparison to a systematic cleansing of an entire people.

I’m saying that Islam is a warlike religion, and it is naive to think otherwise when it’s written pretty plainly in the Koran. They deserve sympathy certainly, but this is one guy who lost his job over it as compared to the Jews who were actually the victims of genocide. I do not hate Muslims as a matter of course, but pretending that they share the same morals that you do is naive. In some ways I admire Muslim morals, like their stance on usury. Our entire society is built upon usury. This is an example, and not even a negative one, of how their morals are different from ours. Sharia law is not compatible with our system. Islam cannot tolerate a separation of church and state, but has a way of accounting for when the Muslim is the Dhimmi in a foreign state, it’s called dissimulation.

Ok, well other than not actually being the victims of Genocide, yeah, they’re exactly like the Jews. :rolleyes:

42

Oh really? I thought analogies were for comparing two things that are similar. I’m sorry I was so misguided.

43

Deady’s an idiot, no doubt about it. Not just for what he said, but for not realizing that his boss’s buddies are the ruling faction in Qatar. You’re probably right, I doubt he cares about Darfur or female circumcision.

Hey, people hate America for some legitimate reasons. I don’t deny that at all. The Iraq war was stupid and arrogant. I have some real issues with American foreign policy over the years, and I think we should be engaging Iran rather than trying to isolate them. The fact of the matter is though, America is nowhere near being genocidal, not even close. I kind of resent the implication that it is. It’s not the fucking same, it just simply isn’t. You wanna call Deady a Nazi, go ahead, but at least recognize that he lost his job over it, he wasn’t promoted to Reichsmarshall or somesuch. I think Giuliani is an evil man, but I don’t think that even he would be genocidal. That’s the difference between how America treats Muslims and how practically the entire world treated the Jews in the twentieth.

44

No, that’s not quite it. An analogy is where you compare two different things, and try to find points of similarity, so as to illuminate some facet of one of the things being compared. Naturally, the two things are going to have a great many differences, because they are, after all, two different things. Pointing out those differences and using them as a basis to declare it a “bad analogy” entirely misses the point of an analogy in the first place. If the two things being compared were the same in all respects, then there would be no point in making the comparison at all, would there?

In this case, monstro was clearly comparing Muslims and Jews as popular targets for racist demogougery. The fact that, for example, such demogougery was much more succesful against one group than it has been against the other is immaterial to the analogy she was making, as she wasn’t comparing the effects of the demogougery, merely the practice of it.

Well, now you know better, and can avoid making the same mistake in the future.

45

Miller Ok, so then ‘Americans: The Jews of the 21st Century.’ is an apt analogy since people in Islamic countries burn our leaders in effigy on a regular basis while chanting ‘Death to America!’

Or ‘Malaysian Democrats: The Jews of the 21st Century’, since the government is trying very hard to oppress them.

Or ‘Narco Traffickers: The Jews of the 21st Century’, as they are being oppressed and killed by governments everywhere for pursuing their business interests.

Or ‘Darfurian Christians: The Jews of the 21st Century’, because they are actually the fucking victims of genocide who could be helped but again the world sits by idly and does nothing.

46

Nope, still not getting it. Might not be any hope for you on this one, mswas. Probably best for you to avoid the topic of analogies altogether.

47

Really, mswas, it seems you’re taking great pains to prove the exact point I brought up earlier, about requiring a situation to be exactly like the Holocaust in order to register a “That’s fucked up”.

I never said that the Muslims were presently being exterminated (although looking at Iraq, well…). You keep trumping this out like it proves something. In 1907, the Jews hadn’t been exterminated either. But doesn’t Deady’s comment sound like something a 1907 Adolf Hitler would say?

I was implying a holocaust comparison. That and only that. You were the one who went back into the annals of history and mentioned the 9000 years of oppression thing. You’re also the one who has compared and contrasted one group’s moral activities with the other, as if I was saying anything more than “Wow. Deady sure sounds like Hitler”.

You’re right. There are no rallies calling for Death to Muslims, though I’m certain those KKK rallies are doing a great deal of anti-Muslim grousing. But to beat this analogy further into the ground, I’m wondering if Germans were really marching in the streets thirty years before WWII. While I’m sure there were some loud anti-Semites standing on soapboxes, I’m thinking people didn’t get on the bullhorn until later. Maybe until it became acceptable to say things that everyone had only been thinking previously.

Do you want us to wait till blood is running in the streets before we get concerned? Lemme tell you, when they’re hearding innocent children into Guantamo Bay, then it’s too late to go Godwinizing. At that point, the ship will have already sailed. The tragedy of the Holocaust didn’t start at Auswitz. It started when Hitler got his first round of applause and people started saying:

Yeah, Deady’s career with Guiliani is quite dead-y. Let’s hope he doesn’t get it in his head to run for office anytime soon. He might just win.

48

Looking back through the thread, I saw that you did not do this. Don’t know why I thought this. Apologies.

49

Cite for the innocent children in Guantamo, please.

50

Not currently. But rather recently there is the case of Bosnia. The claims mix in “ethnic cleansing” which you regard as a seperate matter, but does include some directed massacres, Srebenica of course being the most prominent:

51

:rolleyes:

Let’s exterminate the idiots now.

52

The violence in Darfur is Muslim on Muslim. Far as I know there are no significant Christian populations in the western Sudan. The Christians are in the south, which if not entirely quiescent recently, has nonetheless been calm by comparison. If a genocide is being perpetrated in Darfur ( and there is some evidence that there is ), it is not religious in nature, but rather political/tribal/cultural.

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She wasn’t saying they were there now, she was putting that forward as a future hypothetical to be avoided.

54

Uh huh. What’s the point of arguing “future hypotheticals”?

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So, you don’t see a point in speculating on the possible outcomes of current trends and/or policies?

I guess that explains a lot about your politics.

56

US detains children at Guantanamo Bay. That’s one story, there are quite a few others. I don’t recall if Congress ever got around to investigating the claims that they were raped and/or tortured. I doubt they bothered.

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Now, you know I didn’t say that. What I said, again, is that all you did was reveal how few people you actually do know among the group.

I must admit that that was a surprise. I had no idea that you were connecting moral terpitude and deserving to live or die. You might be surprised to learn that according to some Muslims (and Christians as well) you are morally bankrupt.

I think it does. I think it makes sense that if you live among a large number of predominately Christians (or Muslims or Jews or atheists), you will find yourself annoyed primarily by Christians (or Muslims or Jews or atheists).

58

They were “active combatants against US forces”. Again, where is the cite for innocent children being held at Gitmo?

59

It must be nice to have such faith in the armed forces to believe them incapable of capturing someone who wasn’t a genuine terrorist. Without ever having to bring charges, without having to allow them legal representation, without having to observe the Geneva Convention, what is to prevent the US from giving an innocent person a de facto sentence of life with torture? Nothing.

Bigotry has been a proven winner in Republican politics. Ghouliani has exploited it more than most, but since Nixon’s Southern Strategy it has been part of the political landscape.

60

They have yet to be charged, tried and convicted. What’s your definition of “innocent”?