I think there is a huge difference between “giving up” one’s values and changing them. I am 40 years old and have known at least 12 women who have had abortions. 6 of them were pro-life prior to the procedure – 1 of them was vehemently so. None of these women were hypocrites, IMO, because all of them were pro-choice thereafter. It had been the stand of all of these women that abortion is never necessary if one is responsible about birth control. All of them found out different. One of these women became pregnant in a date rape scenario. She didn’t report the rape, as she felt some responsibility for the situation. Birth control failures accounted for 3 cases; being “swept away by passion” and failing to use birth control accounted for the fifth. The 6th case was the hardest. This woman was religious, and had been pretty vehemently pro-life. She was married and had 2 children already. Her husband had just lost his job and was having a devil of a time finding another. They had already gone through most of their small savings and had medical insurance only on the children. As she put it, “I just couldn’t have a baby.” And, thanks to Roe vs. Wade, she didn’t have to. None of these women were forced to make a decision between having an unwanted child or an illegal abortion.
Now, if a woman who is vocally pro-life and active in the fight to legally abolish abortion has an abortion and still continues to be vocally pro-life and active in the fight to legally abolish abortion – well then, that would be hypocritical. I also don’t doubt that there are such women out there. However, my WAG is that they are in the minority. I believe that having to make the decision to have an abortion forces a reasonable person into the pro-choice camp – IE. that abortion, although never really desired is sometimes necessary, and should be available, safe and legal.
So, to sum up – Pike236? Is your girl still pro-life? If she’s switched sides, then I’m not willing to call her a hypocrite.
Jess
[attention to pro-lifers]The easy availability of the morning-after pill would have rendered 5, if not 6, of the abortions I mentioned unnecessary [/attention to pro-lifers]
I think you are equating “religious” with “faithful.” I am not sure that they are the same thing at all.
I was a fairly religious person (actually, I now am again, although I’m Unitarian nowadays). i.e. I went to church regularly, knew church dogma, shared the majority of the belief structure. But I wasn’t faithful - i.e. I dumped my religion when it no longer fit who I was or who I wanted to be.
BTW, the abortion issue wasn’t the final straw for me and the Church.
The (unjust) generalization the OP made was refuted fairly early in the thread, and the posts have tended to focus on the idea of whether the girl in question is being hypocritical, with examples drawn from posters’ lives given in support of their view.
I’d just like to note that, while I do not agree with the line of thinking, it is not too difficult to grasp the train of thought motivating pro-life advocates:
"The killing of another person, at least without extraordinary reasons for doing so, is evil.
"According to my understanding of when human life begins, an unborn fetus is indeed ‘another person.’
“Therefore, its killing, by an abortion, is evil.”
It’s possible to disagree with either of the premises, but the syllogism does have logical validity (as opposed to necessarily being “true” in the sense of applicable to the world as we know it). “Opinions differ on this issue,” he understated.
Dangerosa, that was not directed at you. When I said how faithful is someone for them to “change” I was referring to being faithful to their values (and values perhaps I equate with being religous, so you got me there, but in that context I was referring to being faithful To God and what they consider good morals) I question the girl in the Original Posts faith in her own religion and her value, not yours. (Because I know people who attend church regularly, yet sin the night before)
I suspect the girl comes from a churchgoing family, considers herself to belong to that religion, and is exploring her independence. She will eventually either discover this particular religion is not important to her, or discover that it is, but right now is discovering. Hence the promiscuity. However, Pike, not being religious himself, describes her as religious. She may define herself as such - religious to her may mean going to church on Sunday and believing Jesus died to save your soul, nothing more (for that matter, maybe she isn’t Christian, maybe her religion finds life to be valuable (the no-abortion thing) but places no restrictions on sexuality).
However, I still hold that one can be religious and not faithful to that religion over time. For one thing, that is defining “religious” for someone else, something I am loathe to do. And I also hold that SOME people will discover that the values they hold dear are not really the values they hold dear when they are tested. This does not make the values they held before the change to be invalid, nor the values held after the change …they are just different. Nor does changing your values over time make you a hypocrit, just human. I wouldn’t say she had a “half-assed” faith, I would instead think that maybe she belongs to a religion she is discovering doesn’t really fit her world view. Nothing wrong with that. (or perhaps she is, as the op claims, a hypocrit).
eh… Im going to agree to disagree with you Dangerosa. That to me is just a bit too liberal for my blood. I DO feel that people can re discover faith and religion, but to me values… hmm… To me when someone changes their morals it goes down to half assed faith, which is what I attribute to the girl in the OP. And to that, like I said, I will agree to disagree.
Is the guy who posted the original “question” around? id like to know why he dated a girl that was pregnant with someone elses child…and how things are going…just curiousity I suppose.
I was raised by a mother who, despite her own follies, attempted to raise me as a good Christian girl. I, of course, mirrored my young teenage life after my moms… and was anything BUT a good Christian girl, however… I still kept the guilt and the unfounded self-righteousness I was brought up with. I became pregnant at 15 and, because of my “Christian” upbringing, kept the baby. He’s a beautiful 6 yr old now and I wouldnt trade him for the world, btw…However… This made me even MORE self-righteous… until I found myself in the same predicament at 19. Nineteen is an interesting age. Its an age where you’re old enough to do what you know is best for you… but young enough to have not really developed any stringent, unchangable morals. At 19, I realized that I couldnt support another child, nor could I handle another pregnancy. Three days before the abortion, I pulled a bumper sticker off of the back of my car that read, “Abortion stops a beating heart.”
What your girlfriend is going through is more convoluted than you could possibly imagine. It’s a very difficult position to be in when you had everything planned out to suit your own fairytale idealisms and then one day it all blows up in your face.
She sounds alot like I was at 19… and if she is, this experience should teach her alot about who she is and what she believes in.
It’s alot easier to “know” whats right for everyone else than it is to face being in their shoes.
Wow… I’m really rambling here. My point is… at 19, I guarantee you she doesnt have any lifelong convictions.
And I honestly believe that most people’s convictions can be overturned by the right situation.
I might tell you that I think that murderers should be life in prison and not death… but if someone shot my 6 yr old between the eyes, do I honestly think I wouldn’t insist of giving the lethal injection myself?
Dont be too hard on her. I’m sure she’s being hard enough on herself already.
If you just dump your religion whenever it doesn’t suit you, then it really isn’t a religion anymore is it? I mean, aren’t you supposed to comply with the religion, not the religion complying with you?
Well, I’m Unitarian, so yes, that is what its suppose to be about. Your religion is supposed to work for YOU, not the other way around. However, Unitarians are unusual, YMMV.
Comment #1:
You seem to be disgusted with girl’s morale, and yet you continue you date her. Perhaps it is just the way you worded this post, or perhaps they way I read it, but it seems to me you are saying “Look how disgusting and fucked up her morals are. What a messed-up girl. Bah”.
Don’t stay with someone you don’t respect.
Comment #2:
You are only as moral as how you live up to the standards you have set for yourself. If you met this girl and you did not know that he was a self-professed “pro-lifer”, then you would think nothing unusual of her antics. However, since she carries herself in a moral way, she seems that much worse. There is nothing wrong with this girl, other than she just received a taste of reality. That doesn’t make her a hypocrite. Hopefully she will adjust her beliefs accordingly.
Comment #3:
Now, as I said above, she is not a hypocrite as long as she changes her beliefs based on what she has lived through. My best friend is a pro-lifer, but I believe this is only because she has not been in the situation where you have to make such a decision. If she were to get pregenant, and continue through with the birth because she genuinely feels it is her duty out of love, not just to live up to what she has professed herself to be, then she is genuine. If she were to choose an abortion, then change her veiws to accomidate more understanding, she would also be genuine. If, though, she had an abortion and continued to preach pro-life, only then would she be a hypocrite.
Comment #4:
The OP was a troll. He hasn’t come back. He was blatantly offensive. See jayjay’s post about an analogy to a sweeping judgement on Judaism. In short, DNFTT.
He probably didn’t like his morals being taken into question just as much as his girlfriend’s morals were.
Honestly, its a tight place to be in. I was there at one point. I became pregnant, in a bad situation and was faced with whether or not to keep my baby or go the route of abortion. I chose to keep him, he’s a year and a half old now, I wouldn’t give him up for the world. Which is exactly what I felt then, I couldn’t deal with the rammifications of having an abortion.
So when it comes to me and my body, I am more on the pro-life side because of my feelings as of right now.
If some girl went out and got herself knocked up and knew full well she couldn’t handle a child and chose abortion, I wouldn’t chastise her. I’m friends with Malkavia and knew her when she had to make her choice at 19 and I totally respect her for doing what’s right for her.
That’s what it boils down to. What’s right for the woman at that point in her life, not her upbringing, not what she thought of abortion on an abstract level with the pro life/pro choice propoganda she had in front of her. Being in the situation is different than being on the other side of the glass.
That’s one thing I like about the Church of the Subgenius. If the Word of “Bob” gets too uptight and pedantic for you, you are encouraged to Kill “Bob”!
I don’t know if I’d say all pro-lifers are hypocrites(*), but I’d definitely say that the girl-in-question most certainly is one. Just don’t get me started on conservatives and hypocrisy…
(* = Pro-lifers who bomb abortion clinics and try to kill doctors who provide abortions certainly qualify as hypocrites, IMO. And while I admit that’s not all of them, it is the group that is most visible in the pro-life arena.)