Pro Life people? [Yes, I DO see the other pro-life thread :)]

miss pepper:

My leaning probably does, although I think there is sound secular reason to be against it as well.

That is the problem. And here’s my thoughts on the issue: from a non-religious point of view, there is as yet no way to answer this question. There is no way, scientifically, to absolutely say “This fetus is not yet human.” That means that if you kill it, you are possibly committing murder. Not definitely, but possibly. If this is true, then, how can we justify keeping it legal? Does it serve a greater societal purpose, like the death penalty does as a punishment or as a deterrent? Not that I can see.

What do the pro-life people have to say about cases where genetic testing determines a fetus has some kind of deformaty? If brought to term, the child would survive, however it would need constant medical care and attention, even into adulthood. It would never have a “normal” life and what lifespan it did have would probably be greatly reduced.

It this type of situation, would they still be opposed to an abortion?

Yes, to speak as one pro-lifer and not for the group. This is a human being and why is killing it in the womb any more acceptable than afterwards? Accidents happen all the time and people require intense, long-term medical care and have shortened lifespans. These people are not put to death (leaving aside cases of euthanasia as practiced, etc.) There are people with fatal conditions who live longer and with a higher quality of life than expected.
Also, for non-religious arguments against abortion, try www.feministsforlife.org And thanks, beagledave, for the Consistent Life Ethic site–great, and a free bumper sticker too! :slight_smile:

You’re talking my language beagledave. Being pro-life is like being a vegetarian. I often use the terms “bovine being” and “canine being” to point out that there is nothing inherant in these terms, along with “human being”, that indicates anything of exeptional value or lack thereof. They’re just labels. My question is not what makes a being a “human”, but what’s “human” about a being?

Personhood is indeed the question, and I would maintain that this term can be understood with greater precision than “human”. A person is a sentient being with a high degree of intelligence and self-awareness. If we broaden the definition of “human” to include the fetus, it no longer includes the criteria for personhood.

I think Dred Scott might disagree with you there.

cm:

But possibly isn’t good enough. If we make abortion illegal, there will definitely be more out-of-welock births, more children living in poverty, more education problems, more crime, more environmental damamge, etc.

You have got to be kidding.

beagledave:

Are you saying that Dred Scott wasn’t an intelligent, sentient being? The people who claimed that slaves weren’t people were OBVIOUSLY full of shit.

No I’m not saying that Dred Scott wasn’t intelligent…I was responding to YOUR point that personhood "can be understood with greater precision than “human”.

It’s nice of you to have the advantage of hindsight to declare that (at one time) the majority of the citizens of this country were “obviously” full of shit.

I think you have hit on the whole problem of the pro-life/pro-choice debate.

Both sides are quite sure that the other side is OBVIOUSLY wrong-headed.

Is a fetus intelligent? No more so than a newborn baby. Is a fetus sentient? It seems to react as if it were, at least after a certain point.

[somewhat of a hijack]My position on abortion is based on my religious principles, and I am pro-choice. [/somewhat of a hijack]

Regards,
Shodan

C’mon, now. A fetus doesn’t just seem non-intelligent. It doesn’t have the brain capacity. The neo-cortex is condidered the “seat of intelligence” and this doesn’t begin to develop until the third trimester. Sure, a newborn isn’t exactly Einstein, but we can still draw the line at the end of the second trimester (which also coincides with viability) as a pragmatic compromise.

My main point is that highly iffy reasoning is insufficient grounds to ban abortion when there are children out there having children.

I’m with you, Shodan. I believe that God doesn’t want us to overpopulate our own species at the expense of all the others and ultimately the Earth’s ability to sustain life.

sqweels:

First of all, your idea of “definitely” is pretty interesting. I’d love to see you prove that legalization of abortion led to a reduction in any of those things; only then will I concede that there is even a high probability that making it illegal will increase those things.

And second of all, are you trying to tell me that economics is a reason to take a chance that you’ll be committing murder? Sorry, but I don’t, and you don’t have to be a religious zealot to agree with that viewpoint.

Easy for you to say, with 150 years of historical hindsight in your corner. What’s obvious now wasn’t then.

Heck, it could be said that it’s “obvious” that the sun goes aropund the Earth.

Chaim Mattis Keller

Well your original premise was that “personhood” is an easily quantifiable commodity (compared to “human”). So far you have yet to show that. YOU have benchmarked personhood at the third trimester according to neo-cortex devlopment .

Discussion of fetal brain development is an iffy proposition at best (check some of the longer threads here that explore that in much greater detail). Even exploring fetal pain (yes, I know it’s not the end all, and be all definition of brain development) is rife with controversy. http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pain.htm

So, no I don’t think a definition of personhood is a nice tidy way to define when abortions should be legal. Truth be told, I think “personhood” is a philosophical distinction (hence, my Dred Scott reference) and not a medical or biological distinction.

If you can find a cite in a standard OB/Biology text that says "personhood begins at week ‘x’ because of development ‘y’, then you will have some legitimacy in treating “personhood” as a medical debate instead of a philosophical debate

scriptural cite please?

Even if it’s conceded that viability is a pragmatic compromise we still have a major problem considering that approximately 8000 abortions occur each year at that time or later. That would be 80,000 infant deaths in the last decade (more than WWI).

Here’s a link:
http://www.abortionfacts.com/statistics/us_stats_gestation_procedure.asp

Grim

Most abortions take place during the first trimester. I do not believe that a fetus at this time is a being of exeptional value vis-a-vis other living things. It is not possible to determine exactly when a fetus becomes a person but it is also not neccessary. All we need to do is draw a legal cutoff point that allows an ample window of opportunity for women to end their pregnancies on the one and an ample margin of safety prior to the moment of birth. The end of the second trimester splits the difference.

I’m sure there were good reasons in most of these cases, but I wouldn’t be opposed to banning all third trimester abortions if in turn there could be no further efforts to ban early-term abortion.

cm:

Scripture smipture. Where’s your cite that says “scripture” or lack thereof proves anything about God?

:slight_smile:

True

So ,so far, we make a determination based upon your “belief” of the value of the fetus? Again, you find it easy (with the gift of hindsight) to call the people who considered slaves to be of less value than others to be “full of shit”…but yet offer up your own value judgment of the worth of the fetus based on your criteria.

Remember you said earlier:

"Personhood is indeed the question, and I would maintain that this term can be understood with greater precision than “human”.

If the term can be understood with so much “precision” (as compared to “human”), I find it ironic that you NOW say

“It is not possible to determine exactly when a fetus becomes a person”

Umm… I never brought up God as a rationale for my position. YOU did. I asked you to provide more than just YOUR own insights into the will of God…("I believe that God doesn’t want us to overpopulate our own species at the expense of all the others and ultimately the Earth’s ability to sustain life. ").

I guess you decided to punt.

You can’t really compare an illness or accident that occurs later in life to a birth defect. It’s the difference between a car that gets damaged in an accident and one with serious manufacturing defects. Unless it’s something relatively minor, the second car should never have left the factory.

The issue is quality of life. Personally, I would rather die or never have existed than to go through life as some three armed drooling mongloid who needs to be spoon fed at every meal. What is the purpose of that kind of life?

Like it or not, death is a part of nature. Things are born, they live for awhile, and then they die. In nature, if an animal is born defective, it is quickly eaten by something. Seems to me that God had set things up like that for a reason.

Because of our medical technology, we can keep a defective person alive pretty much indefinitely. Seems like a fairly cruel thing to do just to satisfy a “right to lifers” sense of morality.

The ironic thing is that so many religeous fundamentalists are against the genetic research that would make these types of abortions unnecessary.

I hope that you are simply unaware of how incredibly offensive the term “Mongoloid” is. Please don’t use that term, as it is considered insulting and archaic by many Downs Syndrome-affected families. I strongly resent the implication that Downs Syndrome children are “freaks”.
Frankly, if anything is “freakish”, perhaps it’s the strange tendency humans have to be repulsed by those who are different: http://prolife.about.com/newsissues/prolife/library/weekly/aa012900a.htm

The abortion for disability argument disturbs me on the most basic level that we don’t know which groups of people may be considered a “defect” that is better aborted as genetic screening becomes more sophisticated. Someday there will probably be people who consider even benign conditions such as homosexuality to be “genetic defects” (not to mention other possibly genetically-linked traits such as obesity).

Is every life worth living? Maybe, maybe not.
However, I do know that it is NOT a given that a person who is disabled at birth is doomed to suffer. Someone who suddenly becomes blind in mid-life may indeed be depressed about it, because they are so used to thinking of the world in visual terms. Someone who is born blind may have no concept of sight, and therefore not feel they’re being deprived of anything. I’m sure some deaf people would give anything to get back their hearing, but other deaf people consciously CHOOSE not to get a cochlear implant to give them hearing.

Even the abrupt onset of severe disability does not necessarily cause someone to prefer death.
Would my father prefer to have two arms and two legs still? OF COURSE. I certainly wish I could have done something to prevent his disability. But since the only life available to him right now is one where he has one arm and one leg, he’s doing what he can with what he still has. Rather than thinking he would be better off dead, we THANK GOD that he is still alive despite all the health problems he has had.
Life is reversible, death isn’t. If someone truly finds life unbearable, they can always opt to end it on their own terms. There’s no going back after we have ended someone’s life.

Prior to the invention of eyeglasses, near-sighted people probably would have been very disadvantaged in many aspects of life. However, nowadays I doubt most of us would consider a near-sighted person “defective”; just different. Who knows what advances will come along within the lifetime of today’s disabled children to make their lives increasingly “normal”? As everyone who has read the story of Samuel Armas knows, fetal surgery for conditions such as Spina Bifida show great promise.

The issue of using artificial means to sustain life is a separate issue. There is a difference between allowing someone to die and actively killing them. If someone went into a cancer ward and shot all the terminally ill patients, it’s still not acceptable or ethical, even if the victims were going to die soon naturally. Obviously, we can’t possibly save every cancer victim from suffering/dying naturally, but we have an obligation to our fellow humans to not CAUSE their suffering/dying.

Here’s another way of looking at it: I’ll suppose for the sake of argument that being disabled is miserable…even then, abortion may still lead to a net INCREASE of suffering.
After all, as long as abortion is the recommended “cure” for certain conditions, there is little motivation (not to mention less opportunity for researching the condition) to seek genuine cures (gene therapy, medication, etc.).
As a consequence, more and more generations of children with a given disability will be conceived, just to be aborted, when perhaps if the first generation of children with the condition had been allowed to live then science would have been more willing and more able to find ways to alleviate their pain.
Even if you don’t agree that abortion is a loss/suffering to the child (though I question whether it’s really more “peaceful” to be dismembered in utero than allowed to die in the embrace of the family that loves you), I doubt any but the most extreme abortion advocates would deny that aborting a wanted pregnancy causes true grief and pain to the FAMILY of the aborted child. The net result: More suffering, not less.

Also, I believe that the “for the child’s own good” argument fosters an attitude that is ultimately anti-choice (not pro-life, not pro-choice, but pro-abortion). If abortion is a “favor” to the child, then why allow pro-life women to “torture” their fetuses by carrying the pregnancy to term? Why not force/coerce pro-life women to abort? For Their Own Good.

Obviously I don’t truly advocate doing such a thing, but I am afraid that treating abortion as an act of “mercy” to the child is already leading many people to feel they have no right to allow their child to live.

I agree with you that it may be assuming too much to give abortion credit for reducing unwed pregnancy, poverty, etc. Perhaps the reverse is true. Perhaps the widespread availability of abortion actually encourages a higher birth rate than discouraging abortion and emphasizing prevention would.

I have met some young women who think, “If I get pregnant, I’ll just get an abortion”…why wouldn’t they think this way, considering that our society often portrays abortion as “the easy way out” (the “all aborting women are selfish” attitude sometimes shown by pro-lifers encourages this misconception IMO) ? I suspect this might lead them to take chances with contraception, only for many to realize when they really ARE in the situation of being pregnant, that it’s not that easy to abort. As a result, another child is born.

However you define “abortion for birth control reasons” (see http://prolife.about.com/newsissues/prolife/library/weekly/aa062600a.htm for a breakdown of the different ways to look at this vague notion), it does seem to happen quite frequently…yet perhaps if there was a general social attitude that emphasized pregnancy does have real life consequences no matter HOW it ends (miscarriage, birth, or abortion all have an impact), rather than “In trouble? Well, you can always have an abortion!” the general social environment would shift towards preventing pregnancy more seriously.

slight hijack:
I dislike the tendency to equate out of wedlock pregnancy with “problem pregnancy”. In fact, I think the stigma on out of wedlock pregnancy is a problem in itself.

It’s fine to emphasize the positive merits of waiting to have sex. It is simply wrong to condemn, shun, and shame those who become pregnant, basically sending the message “Premarital sex is only wrong if you get caught doing it”.
I hate to think how many “good and proper” families end up coercing their daughters into abortions because the parents think along the lines of, “I can’t have the people at church thinking my daughter is a slut!”
In fact, I have met people who went through such a situation, and it is horrifying to me as one who believes real choice is NOT synonymous with merely offering abortion.

Yes, it may be more challenging to raise a child in a single parent home, but looking at the divorce rate (not to mention unforeseeable tragedies such as one parent dying), starting out with two parents is no guarantee that it will stay a two parent home. The rest of us can do more good by helping to increase the support available to single parents rather than telling them they are destined to fail.