Pro-life...with two exceptions

Gosh, I hate wading into these, but here goes…

For those who are against abortion in the cases of incest and rape because there is no reason to “wrong” the “innocent” child, what happens to that poor child’s rights after birth? You see, because this is why I’m staunchly pro-choice for whatever reason. It is NOT the child’s fault for anything that resulted in it’s conception. So, if the mother is irresponsible or if the father would also be that baby’s grandfather, I don’t think that child should suffer those consequences. They truly are innocent and should only be here if they are actually wanted, not as a punishment or a requirement.

Just my .02 cents. And JFTR, I’ve never had an abortion, although with my mental health being the way it is, I would certainly consider it before I’d possibly pass it on and enslave my child to the same hell that I’ve lived with. If it is indeed something I could pass on genetically.

Forgot to add this… although I think the term “pro-abortion” is meant to be inflammatory, I don’t mind having it applied to my stance because, as I see it, it is a medical term and I don’t have any problem calling it exactly as it is. YMMV.

Okay, a strongly pro-life voice here. Against abortion, period.
I can hear the gasps already.

Let me state my reasoning.

I do firmly believe life begins at conception; the egg and sperm have created a unique individual with DNA distinct from either the mother or father, and in approximately 50% of pregnancies, a differing gender than the mother. S/he is a human in the earliest stages of development. S/he will never be anything but a baby, allowed the nutrients and environment in which to grow. S/he will never be a whale, a dog, a bug. These are all diversionary tactics. New life comes from two human cells and always is human. My position, and I’m sticking with it.

As to abortion in times of great distress, physical, emotional or mental: this is an area in which I think that non-Christians probably are missing the comfort we have: this life is not all there is. God has created an eternal soul; death claims merely the body. Knowing this, I can stand back and take a closer look at what God has said about the value of the life He creates, and the picture is one of great love, precious in His sight. I don’t know why things happen in this life the way they do. I don’t know why some loving and generous and kind people die seemingly out of time and other monstrous villainous people seem to live beyond their due. I do know that God will take into account all our actions here, and surely one He will pay the closest attention to is how we treat others when we ourselves face risk. Do we proceed with love or fear? With generosity or selfishness?

I also wish to second Super Gnat’s view: I don’t wish to “punish” anyone. I wish all women in this most difficult position God’s love and mercy. I am sadly much disapointed that 30 years after Roe, with the advances in birth control and sex ed., with the advanced knowledge of fetal development and intra-uterine surgical techniques for previously life-threatening deficiencies, with ultrasound delivering images of our very own young in the earliest stages more clearly than ever demonstrating the humanity of the one nestled inside the mother, that we have hardened our hearts to the needs of our unborn and continue to insist that up is down, wrong is right.

I think I see the signs that abortion is waning as a legitimate, ethical option. The hint of blue in the black night heralds the dawn.

I repsect your opinion, but I hope those who hold that opinion are unable to force it upon others.

Of most of them? Probably not. Because most people are wildly inconsistent.

Now, ask me how I feel about these issues… (but in another thread, please!) :wink:

Julie

It’s often said that the US is polarized on abortion. I don’t think we are. At one end of the spectrum, we have those who say that abortion is so completely wrong that it should never be allowed for any reason. At the other end, we have those who say that if a woman wants an abortion, she should be able to get one without without being asked why, as the woman’s right not be forced to bear an unwanted child is paramount.

In between are the people who say, “abortion should be forbidden – unless the woman has a good reason,” and the ones who say, “abortion should be available to any woman who wants one – providing she has a good reason”.

Ironically, there’s probably some overlap: some who consider themselves anti-abortion (unless there’s a good reason) would probably allow it in more cases than would some of those who count themselves as pro-abortion (if there’s a good reason).

But just what is a good enough reason? The most commonly cited good reasons seem to be rape, incest, severe fetal abnormality, threat to life of woman, and threat to health of woman.

But… how does the woman prove that she really is a rape or insest victim? What if she didn’t report it at the time? (A great many do not.) How bad a problem must the fetus have? How serious must the treat be to the woman’s health? How do we know her life is really in jeopardy? How can we be sure about the degree of fetal abnormality, or the degree of threat to the woman’s life or health? Do we take a doctor’s word for it? How do we know that we can trust the doctor? A pro-choice doctor might lie, as might one who was sympathetic to a particular woman’s situation.

And the above listed “good reasons” are said to add up to a fairly small percentage of abortions. What about all the other abortions? The ones that are dismissed by many as being “just for convenience”? The ones saught for reasons like, “I’m too young to have a baby,” “I don’t want to have to drop out of school,” “I don’t want to tackle parenthood alone, and the man ran out on me when I told him I was pregnant,” “I already have as many children as I want or can handle,” or “I don’t think my marriage can survive the strain of an additional, unplanned, child.”

Are any of these reasons ever good enough? How young is “too young”? 12 and under? 14? 17? Is the wish to continue one’s education a good reason for a sixth grader? A high school senior? A college student? Is this only a good reason if the student’s grades are good? Etc, etc, etc?

Who decides whose reasons are good enough? Do we set up thousands of “abortion boards” to pass judgement on each woman’s reasons? What if a board is backlogged? A woman who has to wait several weeks before her case is heard my find that by the time she gets permission, it’s too late for an early abortion.

But biggest problem is this: if we decide that abortion will only be allowed for women who have good reasons, what happens to the women whose reasons are deemed not to be good enough? Won’t many of them do exactly what women did before Roe vs. Wade – get illegal abortions? We will be right back to a situation where adult women with means will have access to expensive but reasonably safe illegal abortions, while the young and the poor have to choose between risking a dangerous, painful “back alley” abortion and bearing an unwanted child.

Seems to me it woud be better to just leave the decision to the woman. Those who are opposed to abortion could work to reduce the demand for it. There’s a lot to be done, such as providing better acess to / information about contraception for all, promoting research into better methods of contraception, providing more support for financially strapped parents, etc.

Hazel: Well said.

In the case I cited (the Potter’s Syndrome baby) I really think the decision is noone else’s business except for the woman and her physician. At other times and situations, I think it’s probably fair to let others in on the decision, but that’s such a grey area that I’m stumped as to how to decide who gets a say. So my default setting becomes: Leave it up to the women and her doctor. I’m not always happy with the decisions made as a result of that, but that’s how it goes.

Actually I don’t think Hazel’s point was well said at all…at least her initial claim. She claims that U.S. is not polarized in its opinions on the abortion issue, but offers no supporting evidence for that claim. What she does offer are reasons to support her position.

One merely has to look at any mainstream polling on the topic…say Gallup to see the polarization.

I summarized the results in this thread.

beagledave, I take “polarized” to mean that just about everyone is in one camp or the other. Re abortion, I think there’s a continuum of opinions. I think that continuum can be seen as encompassing four basic positions, not two. Not just “for” and “against” abortion being legal.

At one end of the continuum, you have the “fors” (in favor of abortion being legal). At the other end you have the “againsts” (against abortion being legal). In between, you have the “yes buts” (should be legal – but only if the woman has a good reason) and the “no buts” (should be illegal – unless the woman has a good reason). And within both “but” groups, there is considerable diversity of opinion as to what does and does not constitute a good reason.

I would say that the abortion issue is one that Americans are very divided about. It’s an issue we have been bitterly disputing for years. But I don’t think the nation is polarized – not as I understand the word.

An example of a issue where we are polarized would be the death penalty. People either think we should have the death penalty, or that we should not. As you can’t partly execute someone, there isn’t much middle ground. The unpolarized aspects of this debate are, I would say, within the two camps. Pro death penalty people may disagree on what crimes do and do not merit the death penalty. Anti death penalty people may disagree on what we should do instead.

beagledave, the very gallup Poll you posted shows that that consistantly over half the american population feels that abortion should be legal under some circumstances, for the last 25 years. This certainly seems to be a large middle ground.

Add in the 25% who feel that it should be legal in all circumstances and you have over 75% of the population who feels it should be legal at least part of the time. Conversely, 16% wants all abortion to be illegal.

Note that the poll indicates 2/3 of the citizens queried believe that abortion should be allowed if the pregnancy impairs the woman’s mental health.

I fail to see a significant polarization. I see the two groups at the extremes doing all the shouting at each other, while most citizens are somewhere in the grey between. Which certainly matches my clinical experience.

NaSultainne, correct me if I’m wrong, but are you saying that even if it is a case of life and death of the mother, there should be no abortions? What about ectopic pregnancy?

sigh

I’m sorry, but your religious beliefs are NOT a good enough reason for the precedure to be outlawed. Just because YOU believe in an afterlife is no reason for others to go along with it.

Also, to say women should just accept death-that’s fucking cold, man.

**

O.K. fair enough…you’re pointing out (I think) by your polarization remark that there are more than two camps of thought among those who are polled.

There are numerous ways to look at the issue…one is to look at the spectrum of beliefs on the issue among those being polled(and there are more than just a couple stances). The other is to look at the political landscape…how the opinions of the populace are expressed via legislation and voting practices. I think there is a polarization of opinion when it comes to that arena.

Actually, FWIW…I’ve seen some polling data that suggests many of the people who say that they support the DP, would change their mind if the sentence was a guaranteed life imprisonment (no parole or early release)…so that issue may not be as black and white as some suggest either.

Ectopic pregnancy, AFAIK, cannot under any circumstances continue to delivery of a healthy baby. This would necessarily fall under emergency life-saving surgery.

I’m sorry, but your lack of religious beliefs are NOT a good enough reason for the procedure to be legalized. Just because YOU don’t believe in an afterlife is no reason for others to go along with it.

Do you see the fallacy of your argument? You don’t get to disallow my argument because you don’t accept my foundation. For this reason we don’t eliminate men from the discussion, though they will never face pregnancy physically. Yet there are those who would do precisely that.

In addition, I would argue that my religious beliefs advance a superior argument. It supports life, regardless of wealth, political influence, convenience or single-minded pursuit of self as motives.

You overreact, Guinastasia, as do others to this topic. Contrary to your sniff of disdain, I find that abortion is a subject that is all too frequently steered away from serious, thoughtful discussion. The appeal to emotion is overwhelmingly evident. Such statements as a “woman’s right to choose” and “pro-choice” and “health of the woman” (sidenote: never does NARAL refer to her as a mother) and “backroom alleys” and “coathangers” and frequent depictions of pro-life advocates as heaping outrage upon horror against rape and incest victims; the characterization that we impose life onto the most severely, cruelly disabled; both arguments always, always, always appeal to the least statistically significant yet most personally emotionally appealing candidates as authority for automatic, unquestioning abortion. The argument works in reverse, so to speak. Pro-abortion advocates have framed the debate unfairly. Rather than address the millions of women who have had abortions since 1973 for other reasons and directing the debate to the justification or lack thereof, pro-abortion advocates always hide behind the few exceptional circumstances to justify the rest. I never bought the false logic, and will call it on the spot. Let’s deal with the argument on its merits, then deal with the few exceptional situations.

Even though I’m waaaaay out on the “yes, for any reason” end of Hazel’s continuum, when I read threads like this, I still am impressed by a lot of you. Especially posts like tlw’s where the honesty and thoughtfulness is clear to see.

I may be your polar opposite on this issue, tlw, but I respect you, because it is obvious you have thought long and hard about it and reached your own conclusion.

Sure it is. The separation of Church and State. You can’t make a law based on religious belief.

Two points, here. First, secular humanism has now been defined as a religion by the SC in 1961, so Christians are hardly the only ones to be ordered from the pool.
Second, the very same SC which overturned its own ruling of 17 years ago and rendered sodomy legal, can thus do the same with Roe. Apparently precedent doesn’t count for much anymore. Thus, the erroneous use of Jefferson’s phrase could (I pray to God) be removed from it’s illegitmate perch atop the anti-religious carnival.

Oh, and third, separation of church and state applies to the Congress making law regarding religion, not making law that corresponds with religious thought. That I base my position largely, though certainly not entirely, on faith, does not then follow that all who believe in sanctity of life do so for the same reason.

Well you’re going to have a tough time getting Congress to make a law establishing that abortion is illegal because ‘god’ abhors it since that would be a Congressional endorsement of the existence of a god, which they are Constitutionally forbidden from doing.

They can’t have a ‘because god says so’ law, because it’d mean extablishing the religious belief that there is a god. And you can bank on that one being struck down.