Pro-lifers: What should the punishment for getting an abortion be?

I swear, this thread is like pulling teeth.

Explain, precisely, how you are going to protect the unborn from being killed. Prosecuting abortion providers will not protect the unborn from being killed. Before abortion was legal, doctors performed abortions, as JThunder finds it so important to tell us. There is a drug that will cause abortions, so a doctor isn’t even necessary. If I were to attempt an abortion in your world, the worst case is that I’m unsuccessful and have to try again later, because you have set out zero penalties whatsoever for the attempt and/or success.

“Stop, or I’ll yell stop again!”

Doesn’t anyone have the courage of their convictions? You just want yet another stupid and ineffectual law on the books, or what?

Isn’t it amazing, the opposition to such stupid and ineffectual laws?

I am opposed to all stupid and ineffectual laws. I am opposed to any law, even if unenforced or unenforceable, that restricts my rights or the rights of others around me.

I am against feel-good legislation. I am against legislation that can be used on a whim to punish someone’s enemies. I am against creating new contraband for the black market. I am against your religion being pushed on me, no matter how ineffectively.

You’ll have to do way better than that. Just because “everyone” thinks so, does not make it fact. Everyone believed the gods demanded blood sacrifice. Everyone though the universe revolved around the earth. Everyone thought it was OK to own slaves. Everyone thought a lot of things that turned out to be false. Some of those things everyone believed, would turn our “more enlightened” stomachs now.

“It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people’s minds.” - Samuel Adams

“The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject.” - Marcus Aurelius

Stratocaster notwithstanding, I would say MOST of the pro-life movement is being funded and organized by people who want their version of religion to be state law, to one extent or another, and to the exclusion of all other views.

I tend to think, as MEBuckner does, and as I’ve already said, that this is an incremental “program”. I will go further and say it has its basis in what (for this argument) I will call theocrats and christian reconstructionists. People are still free to NOT have abortions.

Cite, please? Or is that statement of yours mere supposition?

The vast majority of pro-lifers that I know believe that certain moral tenets (e.g. the prohibitions against rape and murder) should be enshrined in law, whereas others (worship rituals and respect for one’s parents, for example) should not. It is therefore inaccurate to say that they want their religions to become state law.

Which one is “false”: that virtually everyone believes in the prosecution of those who kill adults, or that almost no one wants to prosecute pregnant women?

We are talking about opinions of criminal justice, which are in the end, opinions, not “facts”. Whether the sun revolves around the earth is a fact. How justice should be served is an opinion.

I work at Planned Parenthood. Part of my job is to counsel women on their options in pregnancy. It is absolutely not an unusual situation to me to be having a conversation with someone who says “I have never believed in abortion, but…” or “Abortion is wrong, but…” or “I never thought I would be in this position…” or “I always said that if I got pregnant I would keep it, but…”

You might not like to believe it, but when push comes to shove, there are an awful lot of “pro-lifers” who, faced with a contraceptive failure, discover interesting things about themselves and their “absolute” positions.

What of abortion providers who don’t feel they are doing an immoral act?

Cite??

Let’s look at this issue in as many ways as possible.

Personhood at conception is a religious belief, not a provable biological fact. Mormon and some Fundamentalist churches believe in personhood at conception; Judaism holds that it begins at birth and abortion is not murder; ensoulment theories vary widely within Protestantism. The religious community will never reach consensus on the definition of a “person” or when abortion is morally justified.
So which religions’ teachings get enshrined into law, and which get ignored?

The “pro-life” concerns of abortion foes are only for fetal lives, not the lives of women or unwanted babies. “Pro-life” is a term used to make anti-abortion and anti-choice seem positive and good.

Many reject the absolutist position that it is always wrong to terminate a pregnancy and believe that abortion may be the morally right choice under certain circumstances.

Many people who are personally opposed to abortion for religious or moral reasons also believe that it is wrong to impose their values by civil law on everyone. You don’t have to like abortion to respect the right of choice.
That describes my very own position (born into and raised Catholic).

Margaret Sanger said, “No woman can call herself free who does not own and control her own body.” This concept is fundamental for women.

Abortion is a religious issue, because the basis of opposition to abortion is the theological question of when personhood begins. Organized religion, primarily the Catholic Church and the “religious right,” is the backbone of the anti-abortion movement and is a cause for great concern among pro-choice religions, who see anti-abortion laws as a violation of religious liberty.
I already touched on this.

Almost all legislators who oppose abortion rights also support the death penalty. One might ask if they think people who are convicted of murder are no longer human.
Every life is precious unless “we” say otherwise (?)

The Constitution protects various rights that are not specifically mentioned, but are derived, via Supreme Court interpretation, from other rights. Examples of this are the right of free association and the right to distribute printed material. The constitutional right of privacy has been interpreted repeatedly to include matters of marriage, family and sex, specifically “the right to be free from unwarranted governmental intrusion into matters so fundamentally affecting a person as the decision whether to bear or beget a child.”
I talked on this, re the Bedroom Police already.

If “person” were defined as beginning at conception, then abortion would be the crime of murder. Women’s bodies, rights and health would be subordinated to the protection of the embryo. No abortions would be permitted for any reason, including rape or incest. Each miscarriage would have to be investigated. The legal consequences of such an amendment would be catastrophic.
This also has been aready covered. If it is a crime, then punish it.

Polls show overwhelming – and growing – support for legal abortion. Typically, a 1982 Associated Press-NBC poll showed that 77% agreed that abortion “should be left to the woman and her doctor,” and that support for abortion rights cuts across political, age, religious, income, education, race and sex differences. Only 19% favored a constitutional amendment outlawing abortion.
Now where were we? Oh yes. Most people think that … CITE???

The same people who oppose legal abortion are attempting to cripple federal and state family planning programs both by defunding and by administrative regulations. The “human life amendment” would outlaw birth control methods, such as the IUD and mini-pills, which act after fertilization. The charter of Birthright, the anti-abortion “problem pregnancy” counseling organization, prohibits referral for contraception.
OK, remove any other options that may prevent the situation from happening, and then hammer someone (anyone) who gets caught between the rock and the hard place.

The Supreme Court, in 1976, reaffirmed that the right of privacy allows women to be free of governmental interference in decisions about childbearing. The Court struck down parental and spousal consent laws that would allow a parent of husband to veto the abortion decision. The Court said that when a husband and wife disagree, only one view can prevail, and that it should be hers because she “physically bears the child and is more directly affected by the pregnancy.”
Like I akready said, it is a private matter.

91% of abortions are done in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, and only 4% after 16 weeks. Tests showing birth defects are not done until the 16th week; and some women do not discover they’re pregnant until this time. Most late abortions are done for health reasons. Ironically, restrictive laws pushed by Right to Lifers, such as mandatory parental involvement and cutoff of Medicaid for poor women’s abortions, cause delay and lead to increased numbers of late abortions.
They aggravate the problem.

Abortions near the point of viability are performed only in extreme medical emergencies when the woman’s life is threatened. A tiny fraction of these cases result in live-born infants, who are given all care necessary to sustain their lives.

In countries where abortion has been legal for years, there is no evidence that respect for life has diminished or that legal abortion leads to killing of any persons. Infanticide, however, is prevalent in countries where the overburdened poor cannot control their childbearing and abortion is illegal.
Hmmmm. Infanticide. What a charming alternative.

If abortion were illegal, well-intentioned but unskilled practitioners would perforate uteruses, misjudge the length of gestation, do incomplete abortions, and otherwise botch the procedure. Women’s health would suffer and the death rate soar. Further, women would once more be forced to break the law to receive medical care, and once more their dignity would be lost in the process.
Ooopsie. they’d also be criminals (if they even survive).

What if your concern is equal protection under the law? If two people participate in a murder, and one goes unprosecuted because she’s sympathetic, then your not dealing in justice any more. How can the mother not be as liable as the doctor?

A 1982 poll?

According to statistics from the U.S. Department of Justice, infanticide rates rose in the U.S. in the 1970s and 1980s.

Cites please?

FBI, Supplementary Homicide Reports, 1976-2002.

U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics, Homicide Trends in the U.S..

According the Bureau of Justice Statics you are absolutely right, the rates of infanticide (under the age of 5) rose sharply from the 70’s until about 1995.

This information may seem shocking and will likely be used to confuse the statistically challenged. But by scrolling down the page, you will see a second graph that shows the rate of infanticide per capita, that is, corrected for an increase in population.

I’m not sure why, but I was a bit surpirsed to see that mothers and fathers were about equally likely (31% and 30%) to be the killer.

Sorry, that should be 31% for fathers, and 30% for the mothers.

What part of “The vast majority of pro-lifers that I know…” don’t you understand?

Now, since you specifically said “I would say MOST of the pro-life movement is being funded and organized by people who want their version of religion to be state law, to one extent or another, and to the exclusion of all other views.” Can you please substantiate that opinion? Is it based on facts, or is it based on mere supposition?

I don’t think Stratocaster would deny that. Nor would I; after all, we’ve discussed this often enough.

Ultimately, this merely shows that human beings can be inconsistent in their beliefs. There are people who believe in honesty… that is, until they’re in a posiiton where it’s tempting to steal or lie. There are men who believe in marital fidelity… until their marriage hits a rough spot. And there are pro-choicers who believe in making informed choices… until someone starts talking about letting a pregnant woman see an ultrasound video of her womb before having an abortion.

Sure, people sometimes back down from their moral principles when push comes to shove. That does not render those principles invalid.

Wow. I… don’t. But then, though I never have given birth (& I’m fairly certain I never will); given my own historyof emotional disturbance, I have some vague sense of how awe-strikingly awful postpartum depression can be. Why send a woman to prison & make her more miserable?

Here’s the thing. I think you’ll find that most pro-life activists (at least those who are adults & have some idea of the reality of the context) don’t favor any punishment for women who have abortions. They approach this campaign as consequentialists, not retributionists. They just want there to be fewer abortions, so they make it hard for medical professionals to assist in them. Some of this is pragmatic, given other people’s prejudices. But to some degree, it’s that they really are trying to do what they think will make the world a better place. Some are just trying to reconcile their own distaste for criminalizing abortion; while others are actually thinking about the consequences of their actions, & don’t want to “repay evil with evil.”

Of course, I really am a consequentialist in general. Retribution is fine, if it makes the world better. It’s foolish if it only makes things worse. I tend to favor an approach to the law which sees penalization not as the final end, but as one possible means to an end of making the world better.

I tend to favor laws that don’t punish doctors & hospitals for providing access to abortions, though I understand why some see that as a “soft” way to “save human lives.” Interestingly, I & the pro-life advocate agree that investigating miscarriages is a waste of effort. But some still want to investigate hospitals that perform abortions, & attempt to vet each case to see whether it be therapeutic. The most fundamental difference is that I see the moral needs of humanity in this age as not primarily being answered by a massive numerical increase in human lives. In an age of serious global population concerns, the insistence that each human life must be held sacrosanct seems delusional.