I am against it in todays world. I dont see any situation, today, in America where it is appropriate. The frontier is now settled, and we now have more than enough laws, police, and lawyers.
No more discussion of this, if you want to discuss vigilantism, why dont you start a thread on it?
Back to the topic of making abortion illegal, and how to make such laws truely effective, and how to justly punish those who murder babies.
Because your “sample law” is not effective.
5-10 years sentence, meaning maybe 2 actual years in prison after good time and parole, is not a just sentence for murdering a person.
Our courts would be overloaded with such short sentences for a million murders each year, and adding on repeat offendors would bring ALL!!! trials in America to a standstill, preventing other cases from even being heard.
Do you have any idea of the amount of resources(police, lawyers, court reporters, building new courtrooms, guards, juries, etc.) and time, taxes, lost wages, etc, it would take to do jury trials on a million new cases each where the convicted get out after 2 years? (even 5 years if you made 5 a mandatory minimum)?
But Susanann I’ll bet (not hard evidence, obviously) that if we started putting people in jail for a few years for an illegal abortion, the number of abortions (thus the number of court cases) would diminish rapidly.
Susanann, you need to review the process involved for an execution. Your War on Abortion that will arrest “the woman, the doctor, the nurses, the receptionist, the taxi driver…” is going to FLOOD the court system the way the the War on Drugs has.
Execution costs more and requires more time than a simple life sentence. But this isn’t for debate here, I just want to point out that you calling Blalron’s law ineffective made me laugh.
Blalron, are you planning anything in your law to prevent future abortions? Drunk drivers lose their licence. I would hope a murderer wouldn’t be allowed to own a gun. Should an ex-con-abortionist be allowed to get pregnant?
So you are comfortable waiting for the wheels of politics to turn while a million babies are slaughtered every year. Quite the pacifist, you.
WARNING
This thread is in danger of becoming seriously surreal!
Or should that be surreally serious?
Executions only take a lot of time and resources today, because there are so few of them today.
In the old days, executions were carried out fairly quickly, cheaply, and took very little resources.
After we execute the first 10 or 20 thousand women and doctors, the executions will go quite smoothly and quickly.
I dont know if the number of abortions will decrease(except in the cases of repeat offendors- there wont be any), that is speculation, but if fewer women have abortions because of the death penalty, if more women choose to use birth control, then all the better.
The war on drugs takes a lot of time and resources because we dont execute offendors. You cant compare apples and oranges. Not the same thing.
funny- i had always thought that executions took so much time and resources today because we are actually concerned about innocent people dying at the hands of the State.
and here, all this time, it was because we were not taking advantage of our volume discount.
i guess if you take that little factor out, then the wheels of justice can start going full tilt, eh?:rolleyes:
Well, under susanann’s proposal, there would not be 1 million executions a year. Not even remotely close.
How are you going to investigate a potential abortion? For a murder conviction (which is what you will be looking for), you will need a body to prove a crime. And an aborted fetus would be easy to permanently dispose of. Are there tests that you can use to tell if a woman has had an abortion? Perhaps hormone levels? Still shaky evidence.
Who is going to be a witness? The abortion provider will not come forward as they would be facing the death penalty themselves. The father of the fetus? How likely are they to know?
Are the police going to use a sting operation to catch the doctors? Taking hundreds, if not thousands of doctors off the street (and without catching any pregnant women to boot) would violate public policy.
The impracticality of it all makes the idea of death penalty, or even a conviction of any kind, so difficult that I would be suprised if there was even one person sentenced per month. Hardly a deterent for the “1 million” number.
Not to mention the serious shortage of medical practitioners. Who would want to become a doctor or nurse when even the accusation of assisting/performing an abortion can get you executed?
While it is my sincere hope that an alternative to abortion, one that allows the maximum amount of freedom to the woman yet ensures that unwanted babies are not casually disposed of like cellulite, will be found in the forseeable future…
Susanann, your Procrustean, sociopathic solution makes me nauseous.
If you payed attention, I wrote “not less than five years”. Which means 5 years is the bare minimum.
You are assuming every single person will get the lightest sentence possible, and will get paroled as soon as possible.
And you don’t think a million murder trials a year isn’t going to tie up the system?
I honestly don’t believe we’d have a million cases each year if it were outlawed.
Right now, abortions are legal and aboveground. So that means we can collect statistics on them. That’s where we collect the stastic “one million abortions per year”.
Your apparent assumption in saying there will be a million people convicted a year is
(1) That the law will deter nobody from committing the crime and won’t reduce the total number of abortions. If that assumption were true then your Law does nothing except exact revenge.
and
(2) Every single abortionist will be caught.
Susanann, another thing to consider.
Our system doesn’t hand out a Mandatory Death Penalty whenever somebody causes a wrongful death. We take factors into account such as the state of mind of killer at the time, and whether or not they are a future danger to society.
Do you want to remove all of those considerations and simply execute everybody that causes a wrongful death?
I noticed that you mentioned the extremely high cost of keeping all those people in prison, and said that makes the Death Penalty neccesary. Isn’t that basically saying we should just kill them to save money, regardless of whether that is always a proper punishment?
Well, the answer is normally “women and children” which doesn’t help much here. But I’ll assume you mean the kid.
If you do, we run into the mother of all 14th Amendment cases (no pun intended). That amendment states:
So, basically, the government is forbidden from deciding who lives and who dies. Who’s choice does it then become? Certainly not the fetus, and the mother would be making the decision under duress or could likely be unconscious.
Can we expect anyone, even a doctor, to play God like that? Should we make someone play God like that??
If you want to stop the woman from getting another abortion, wouldn’t sterilizing her be a less extreme method than killing her?
Do Il Tipo, Jthunder, Bob Cos, and the gang have anything to add here? You’ve normally been extremly active in these kinds of threads.
It rather bothers me that those who are so willing to eliminate a womans right to choose are so reluctant to clearly explicate the legal framework that they would bring about as a result of that.
Giving a free sterilization to a woman who does not want kids is not a penalty for committing murder, and would not serve as a deterrent.
(I am surprised you did not suggest that all child bearing age women in America be on some kind of implantable birth control, unless and until they get a license to have a child).
Um, how would it NOT be a deterrant? I mean, it’s kinda hard to have an abortion when you’re not even pregnant.
Well, if the woman wanted kids at some point in her life, just not at the time that she got the abortion, I think it would be a pretty huge punishment for her. This, of course, in addition to the prison time.
Imagine if you were an 18 year old girl who got pregnant, the guy you were going with decided to skip town upon hearing this news. Just took off and is nowhere to be found. You manage to find a doctor that performs an abortion in violation of the law. Right after the abortion is completed, cops reach the scene, storm in and arrest you and the doctor.
After a trial and conviction, the judge sentences you to 10 years in prison and a forced sterilization.
The years go by, you rot in prison. You count every day for 10 long years, then finally the big day comes when you get out.
By this time, you are 28 years old and can never have children, ever again… even if you meet a wonderful man and desperately want to have children this time. NEVER AGAIN. And you will remain a convicted felon with a record. A felony record stays with you for a very long time.
This is not punishment?
If a woman is sterilized, she can’t have abortions again. No more dead fetuses. Seems like a deterrant to me.
Unless you can show that most women who get abortions are likely to go on to commit murder on BORN people, I don’t see why we would need to execute them as a deterrent to them murdering again. 99% of them are not a threat to anyone OUTSIDE of their womb. Why kill them if they can function in society again?
These women are people with friends and family who love them. Killing them will devastate not only the women, but their mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters and coworkers and aunts and uncles and cousins and everyone who knows and cares about that woman.
Why cause further blood shed if it’s not neccesary to achieve your goal?
Absent 100% effective and reversible methods of birth control it’s just not feasible. Unless you want to ask everybody who doesn’t want children, even married couples, to abstain from all sex.
Well, if the woman wanted kids at some point in her life, just not at the time that she got the abortion, I think it would be a pretty huge punishment for her. This, of course, in addition to the prison time.
Imagine if you were an 18 year old girl who got pregnant, the guy you were going with decided to skip town upon hearing this news. Just took off and is nowhere to be found. You manage to find a doctor that performs an abortion in violation of the law. Right after the abortion is completed, cops reach the scene, storm in and arrest you and the doctor.
After a trial and conviction, the judge sentences you to 10 years in prison and a forced sterilization.
The years go by, you rot in prison. You count every day for 10 long years, then finally the big day comes when you get out.
By this time, you are 28 years old and can never have children, ever again… even if you meet a wonderful man and desperately want to have children this time. NEVER AGAIN. And you will remain a convicted felon with a record. A felony record stays with you for a very long time.
This is not punishment?
If a woman is sterilized, she can’t have abortions again. No more dead fetuses. Seems like a deterrant to me.
Unless you can show that most women who get abortions are likely to go on to commit murder on BORN people, I don’t see why we would need to execute them as a deterrent to them murdering again. 99% of them are not a threat to anyone OUTSIDE of their womb. Why kill them if they can function in society again?
These women are people with friends and family who love them. Killing them will devastate not only the women, but their mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters and coworkers and aunts and uncles and cousins and everyone who knows and cares about that woman.
Why cause further blood shed if it’s not neccesary to achieve your goal?
Absent 100% effective and reversible methods of birth control it’s just not feasible. Unless you want to ask everybody who doesn’t want children, even married couples, to abstain from all sex.