I decided to re-visit this “thread-that-will-not-die”. I suppose I can feel a little flattered that I finally succeeded in starting a thread that has become one of the most popular threads on these boards. I guess this thread has also kept going due to the persistence and passion of Olentzero and his equally persistent opponents. So I guess I abandoned the fight too early.
Many posters have referred to a supposedly wonderful offer made by Prime Minister Barak to the Palestinians last year, which Chairman Arafat then supposedly turned down flat, and their reasoning is, “the Palestinians had their chance, and they blew it, boo-hoo for them.” Well, it’s not that simple. There is some doubt as to whether Barak made a real offer, and whether he was sincere. There is an article from the Guardian, Britain’s left-leaning newspaper, which deconstructs the myth of “the Palestinians’ lost opportunity”, and it can be accessed at the Peace Now website:
http://www.peacenow.org/nia/news/malleyagha.html
I also believe that any offer that left the settlements in place would be doomed to failure. No responsible Palestinian leader could ever agree to institutionalize the land thefts and lock in the settlements forever. The settlements, along with unequal allocation of resources and economic underdevelopment, are the crux of the problem, even more so than the fate of Jerusalem, and they are the real reason for the near-total disenchantment with the Oslo accords.
Of course no one can deny or defend that list, but I have my own list which is equally undeniable and indefensible: Car-bomb attacks on the West-Bank mayors. The attempt to blow up the Dome of the Rock. Constant incursions into homes and unwarranted killings and woundings by settlers and occupation troops. Land seizures and dispossessions. “Collective punishment.” Deportations. Killings of youths for throwing stones during the first Intifada. The killing of an Israeli Arab youth as he demonstrated for peace last year. Arbitrary detention, legalized torture and deaths in custody. The Temple of Abraham massacre. Targeted assassinations, without the benefit of a trial and with “collateral damage.” And little Mohammed, shot last year while in his father’s arms.
Add to that the fact that roughly five times as many Palestinians as Israelis have died in the current conflict. I do not think all of the dead were “known terrorists,” especially since they were never given the chance to defend themselves in court. The IDF even went so far as to admit that one of its recent victims could not be tied directly to any attack, but that he “would have” planned and carried out terrorist attacks. Little Mohammed definitely was no terrorist, unless you want to take the disgusting position that he “would have” become a terrorist, “nits become lice,” and so it was better that he die now instead of five or ten years later.
And I don’t buy for a minute the explanation about “accidentally” killing non-combatants. If you kill some innocents, apologize and express regret, but then continue to carry out the same operation which continues to kill more innocents, then that is the same as doing it on purpose, and that is terrorism and murder.
Let’s not even delve into the bombing of the King David Hotel and the assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte, carried out by two men who later became Prime Ministers of Israel, since that’s ancient history. But let’s mention it in passing, and add it to the list.
I reiterate: Israel is NOT a democracy, and it is far from being a uniquely enlightened state in the region. And let’s have no more nonsense about how the Jews’ ethnic solidarity is so much better than Arab solidarity. Even the “rich Arab states” never had any obligation to take in an entire population from another region. A true democracy allows equal civil rights and equal citizenship opportunities for ALL subject peoples within its borders, without regard for ethnicity or religion.
Even Iran, where fundamentalism is dominant and free speech can be dangerous, is definitely competitive with Israel in the “democracy” arena. At least Iran allows a greater proportion of its people to vote and hold office (including women), and reformists and moderates are getting elected.
Alessan did say something in defense of Israeli troops, but she was talking about the ancient atrocity of Dir Yassein, NOT the modern-day occupation troops. And it is interesting that nobody has even tried to defend the settlers. The settlers, extremist or not, violent or not, really need to leave, even if they have to be taken out in handcuffs. The day they leave is the day the conflict starts winding down, and any Israeli government that truly wants peace will recognize this. If Israelis want to live on Palestinian land, they should rent it from Palestinians or buy it from Palestinians at a fair price, not steal it.
I have been dismayed by some of the posts here which have sought to demonize the Palestinian people and culture as a whole. When you demonize an entire population, that is RACISM. (Please don’t split hairs about the definition of “race,” it’s the same principle.) Blaming Palestinians en masse for terrorism is ethically the same as blaming African-Americans en masse for street crime.
Palestinians and Arabs in general are, on the whole, kind, hospitable, generous and friendly, but these humane qualities can disappear under extreme pressure, just as for any other people. The Israelis (and white South Africans!) I have met were the same. I think people are basically good, but it is so sad that admirable human traits can be crushed under the burden of “tradition” and “patriotism.” Jews and Arabs have more in common than they think, but they may never find this out.
About the “celebrating Palestinians”: one factor no one has mentioned yet is that of DISTANCE.
If my SO died, I would be destroyed and wracked with grief. If the SO of a friend died, I would merely feel sad for them. If I hear in the news about someone’s SO dying on the other side of the country, I click my tongue and say, “Gosh, what a shame.”
Similarly, if I lived in New York the emotional impact of what happened would have changed my life. But since I live three thousand miles away, it’s still a shock to me but the impact isn’t as great unless I talk to my Mom (a New Yorker) and hear about all the sad scenes she has witnessed. A little farther away from the US, people may go, “Tsk tsk, what a pity.” And when it comes to other side of the world– especially in a region where many people blame the US for their suffering–a common response may be, “Hey, it wasn’t us who died this time!”
When Americans hear about suffering on the other side of the world, many of them are cavalier about it, or may even joke about it in bars, even liberals. Does this make them monsters? No. If the location of the suffering is an “enemy country” where (for example) a nuclear power plant exploded, comedians may say something like, “A-HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA, BETTER THEM THAN US!” and be applauded wildly. Does this make the comedians and their audiences monsters? No. The suffering seems far enough away to laugh or gloat about it.
Come on now, Americans are not exactly blameless when it comes to celebrating foreign deaths!