Professional house painters and shoddy work

Factual Questions
21

[QUOTE=A.R. Cane]
Ya’ know Ring, there is another possibility here. I’ve got a buddy who is a custom builder and every so often he gets a customer that is a total PIA and eats up much of his profit by slowing progress. You need to be honest w/ yourself and review your behavior over the duration of this project. If you’re frequently nit picking and interfering w/ the tradespeople while their working, and if you’ve made lots of minor, or even a few major, changes, it entirely possible that your builder is just fed up. I’m not saying this is the case, but you should consider it.
[/QUOTE]

I also considered that (I’ve pals in the trade)

  • however I figured that it has gone far enough, and that Ring is being jerked around
  • also I’ve a lot more ‘loyalty’ (alliegance ?) to someone on SD

@Ring, looks rather a nice house, what you need is a seriously tough girlfriend to sort thing out.
Not joking, the delectable wife of a guy who owned part of a company I worked for, regaled me with stories of lousy contractors sorting out a mansion they had bought - in the end she ran the project herself.

22

[QUOTE=A.R. Cane]
Ya’ know Ring, there is another possibility here. I’ve got a buddy who is a custom builder and every so often he gets a customer that is a total PIA and eats up much of his profit by slowing progress. You need to be honest w/ yourself and review your behavior over the duration of this project. If you’re frequently nit picking and interfering w/ the tradespeople while their working, and if you’ve made lots of minor, or even a few major, changes, it entirely possible that your builder is just fed up. I’m not saying this is the case, but you should consider it.
[/QUOTE]

I’m well aware of how nit picking can drive anyone crazy. In fact I usually ask the construction mgr. if he think I’m being a nit picker. I specifically tell my wife, all the time, that we can’t complain about every little item or we’ll never get anything accomplished. As an example: The electrician mounted a programmable timer a foot and a half above the garage floor but I didn’t say anything. Although I had to grit my teeth over that one. I have to lie on my side to push the buttons. In addition the timer has a “1” rating on Amazon. It usually fails in a few months.

23

[QUOTE=Ring]
I’m well aware of how nit picking can drive anyone crazy. In fact I usually ask the construction mgr. if he think I’m being a nit picker. I specifically tell my wife, all the time, that we can’t complain about every little item or we’ll never get anything accomplished. As an example: The electrician mounted a programmable timer a foot and a half above the garage floor but I didn’t say anything. Although I had to grit my teeth over that one. I have to lie on my side to push the buttons. In addition the timer has a “1” rating on Amazon. It usually fails in a few months.
[/QUOTE]

OK, I just put it out there as a possibility.
I gotta’ tell ya’ though, I think your plan to show the guy this thread is less than useless. If he’s already intimidating you, as you say, he’s probably gonna’ laugh at this thread. With things as bad as you say, it’s time to bite the bullet. IANAL, but the idea that a lawyer can’t represent you because they did business w/ this guy at some previous time, sounds ridiculous to me. Maybe the builder has a lot of political clout in the area and that’s the reason. Based on your description of events, I think you badly need an attorney, even if you have to go outside the area. Have you tried calling the county bar assoc. for a referral?

24

[QUOTE=Ring]
house has now been under construction for over 20 months; no other house (some much larger) in this development has taken longer than 12 months to finish. I’m renting a condominium that’s costing me $1600 bucks a month and I’m that much poorer every month this drags on.

[/QUOTE]

Might be a good idea to review your contract and see if there’s a penalty clause?

Agree with everyone else. If your contractor is throwing tantrums every time you raise an issue, it’s time to get a lawyer.

25

Put crudely, the guy is treating you as if you were a clown.

I’ve a suspicion that you overplayed the ‘I’m a regular guy’ bit in the first place

  • been there and done that - it works fine if they are smart enough to spot the obvious lie

Getting a local attorney is a great idea, especially one that has dealt with the turd before and anticipates dealing with him again.

Realistically, they’ll just negotiate quietly
Attorney: Why are you jerking the guy around
Developer: He gets on my tits
Attorney: He is paying both of us - and if he gets nasty he has a case
Developer: Sh/t, I’m using him as the pool - I got to pull people to other sites
Attorney: He is getting really annoyed - he might be new round here, but he’ll spread the word

Let your wife rip on them - builders respond to female determination.

The first thing I would do is get a local attorney to demand a letter from him justifying his ‘lead paint’ spiel.

You also need to hurt the developer in some way - also to assert authority.

Probably you work in a trust based industry - and cannot understand the mindset of ripping someone off as they are repeat customers.

Basically you are dealing with people who are a bit thick.

26

[QUOTE=A.R. Cane]
OK, I just put it out there as a possibility.
I gotta’ tell ya’ though, I think your plan to show the guy this thread is less than useless. If he’s already intimidating you, as you say, he’s probably gonna’ laugh at this thread. With things as bad as you say, it’s time to bite the bullet. IANAL, but the idea that a lawyer can’t represent you because they did business w/ this guy at some previous time, sounds ridiculous to me. Maybe the builder has a lot of political clout in the area and that’s the reason. Based on your description of events, I think you badly need an attorney, even if you have to go outside the area. Have you tried calling the county bar assoc. for a referral?
[/QUOTE]

Paint correction is minor grade stuff. This is where assertiveness yet no hysterics or asshattery come in. I have been restoring our house for 6 years now for many hundreds of thousands of dollars. Most people do fine work because both my wife and I set clear expectations (she is the the one you don’t want to deal with more than once BTW). Each time, it is something that everyone can see as long when they come over and look at it and have it pointed out to them. Just ask and experienced contactor if that is the type of work that he likes to see on his job. He will always say no and then just tell him to come over and fix it. There is no more to it. Pussies don’t get anywhere in this world buy hysterical “victims” don’t either. Just tell him what to do and the time-frame to do it in.

I have had to have many contractors do work over again and a few stop work and get kicked out to get replaced. The only mega problem we had was a contractor that refinished our antique floors. He said that he could only do it at an outrageous price (about 10K) because there were lead traces and we were expecting our first child. We moved out but my SIL was a lead inspector and dropped by mid-job to find that he took no precautions whatsoever. We took the unusual step of having out own house condemned later that day which made him intiate a cleanup on his own. Our property was very overgrown when we bought it and I had this favorite machete that I loved to cut down brush and small trees with. About a week later, the floor guy and his son pulled up while I was cutting brush and asked for the remaining money. I stood there playing with my machete while I was talking and explained that they had already gotten the half that they were ever going to get. He kept asking me to put down the machete and I told him that I couldn’t because you never know when you might need it and he got the idea and left. We never heard from them again.

That is unusual though. I will have no respect for the OP unless he just acts like a man, points out the problems, and then gives them a window to fix it. There is no reason that any adults of a wisp of reason and ethics wouldn’t just work it out. Working it out in this case means just telling them reasonable things that need to be fixed and when they need to be done by. That is the whole key to dealing with most contractors. “I think you really should” doesn’t compare to “here are the problems and this is what you need to do to rectify them. This has to be done in 1 week.” That is what I do on my job every day so it isn’t that difficult but anyone should realize that contractors expect to have things in those terms as well before they truly understand. I have had many a 7 am meeting with contractors politely explaining what they would correct soon and they always did it. Don’t go the hysterical, legal seeking nancy boy route because it just wastes time and shouldn’t be something a real man should need to do.

27

Okay, I think I’m getting the colour matching problem. It never occured to me that there could be any difficulty in acquiring additional paint of the same colour which should be coded on prior cans.

Either you or the contractor is ahead value wise at any point during construction. If you had held back 10% of the contracted draws(legally neccessary in every jurisdiction I’ve worked in) and typically called holdback, you should be ahead after 20 months.

If you have a construction mortgage, your bank can support you, by refusing to authorize a draw

You should be at a stage where you can list all the deficiencies that need to be addressed.

If the contractor refuses, you can write him a letter explaining if he does not concur, you will remedy the deficiencies by other means and deduct the cost from the contract price.

I’m not a lawyer, but I’ve been on both sides as a contractor and contracting homeowner, and if push ever comes to shove, I’d much rather be the homeowner.
Your contractor knows that I’m sure.

28

[QUOTE=Finagle]
Might be a good idea to review your contract and see if there’s a penalty clause?

Agree with everyone else. If your contractor is throwing tantrums every time you raise an issue, it’s time to get a lawyer.
[/QUOTE]

I know you’re correct, but the thought of starting a long drawn out legal process is more than I can bear. Plus if this guy got a letter from an attorney, I guarantee you he would cease operations immediately.

The whole problem is that this guy has made some really bad deals lately and he’s losing his ass. In fact he took my business on a fixed price basis, and I know he’s going to lose money on it.

While he could easily fix the paint problem by repainting the wall, there are so many places where this is a problem, he’d have to practically repaint the entire house.

Plus, In an effort to recoup some of his losses He’s charging me ridiculous amounts for every little change. I haven’t made many changes so I’m just putting up with it so far, but if I get an attorney I’m going to feel duty bound to address the change issue.

I was a Plant Manager for over 15 years (150 million in sales, and around 700 employees) so he doesn’t intimidate me: what he does is scare me. I’m afraid he’s going to lose it to the point where he does something really stupid and winds up screwing both of us.

When we get into these type of discussions his face turns beet red, he dips his head, and starts using a tone of voice that makes it clear that he’s about to blow. At that point I just shake his hand and say I hope we can remain friends. He then has thrown both arms around me and while he hugs me he tells me he loves me. (he doesn’t mean this sexually.)

It’s this kind of behavior that tells me this guy is close the edge, but still I can’t put up with paint issue. It really looks bad.

29

Sounds like a crackpot - get him committed!

30

It may be an assertiveness or a cultural thing but I don’t understand your dilemma although I understand your complaint just fine. Builders and contractors can make mega-bucks as in several hundred thousand dollars a year or more. Mine does. They also have to satisfy customers that are also paying megabucks for their homes. I am one of the last people to say that the customer is always right but if there is a clear problem that anybody would notice then you just explain it, they have to acknowledges it or admit that they are brain-dead and politely tell them to fix it. That is all there is to it. Again, paint is trivial. Contractors should not paint 10 remarkably similar coats until the customer is stratified but they do have to make sure the ones that are there match and that the general quality is there.

It may be a cultural thing because I am used to telling people what they have to do in a polite yet firm way and my wife even morsel. It is not a big deal. Show and he will agree. Then work out a solution that will never, ever, require any work on your part.

In my experience, the people that are least effective are the ones that run to someone outside to help them at the first opportunity such as lawyers. It is stupid paint after all. Tell them to paint it again. It isn’t that hard.

31

Ring

Take control

  • give the moron a list of things to be done, give him a reasonable time schedule and start ticking things off - when they are done.

You might be dealing with a guy whose business is going down the pan, or he might be a con artist, from what you have said so far he sounds like what us Brits would call a ‘wanker’.

Basically you need to kick arse.

There is a time to draw a sharp knife over a baby’s throat

  • never draw out a contract through compassion

If a guy flung his arms around me I would be looking for a body disposal facility, you have a manipulative hysteric on your hands.

32

Some further information in case anyone is interested. This guy is 67 years old. 5 years ago he divorced his lifelong mate and married a woman 30 years younger than him. Within a year they had a baby, and this woman of his dreams is demanding she be treated, monetarily, like the gold digger she is.

I was in his office one day when she happened to stop in his doorway. He jumped up, ran to her, and started hugging and kissing her – one of the more embarrassing moments of my life.

So, he has a greedy young wife, a young child, he’s in debt keeping his young greedy wife in the lap of luxury, and he’s losing his ass in his business.

In an attempt to alleviate this disaster he took way more business than he can handle, at prices lower than he should have. All his customers are pissed at him and I’m stuck in the middle of this whole damn mess. And the paint still looks terrible.

33

[QUOTE=FRDE]
Ring

Take control

  • give the moron a list of things to be done, give him a reasonable time schedule and start ticking things off - when they are done.

You might be dealing with a guy whose business is going down the pan, or he might be a con artist, from what you have said so far he sounds like what us Brits would call a ‘wanker’.

Basically you need to kick arse.

There is a time to draw a sharp knife over a baby’s throat

  • never draw out a contract through compassion

If a guy flung his arms around me I would be looking for a body disposal facility, you have a manipulative hysteric on your hands.
[/QUOTE]

You don’t understand FRDE. This guy is close to completely losing it. the house is 99.9% finished and I’m trying to massage this situation so I can move in sometime soon. I can be a very hard ass, dominating individual when I want to be, but if I push this guy too hard right now, he’s going right over the edge. That’s why I started this thread I didn’t want to push this paint thing too far if it wasn’t a reasonable thing to do.

34

Under such circumstances it might be time to cut your (potential) losses and get moved in ASAP. Couldn’t cost much (as a % of the cost of the house so far) to get some remedial painting done.

Cut the contractor loose before he drags you down with him

35

[QUOTE=Shagnasty]
It may be an assertiveness or a cultural thing but I don’t understand your dilemma although I understand your complaint just fine. Builders and contractors can make mega-bucks as in several hundred thousand dollars a year or more. Mine does. They also have to satisfy customers that are also paying megabucks for their homes. I am one of the last people to say that the customer is always right but if there is a clear problem that anybody would notice then you just explain it, they have to acknowledges it or admit that they are brain-dead and politely tell them to fix it. That is all there is to it. Again, paint is trivial. Contractors should not paint 10 remarkably similar coats until the customer is stratified but they do have to make sure the ones that are there match and that the general quality is there.

It may be a cultural thing because I am used to telling people what they have to do in a polite yet firm way and my wife even morsel. It is not a big deal. Show and he will agree. Then work out a solution that will never, ever, require any work on your part.

In my experience, the people that are least effective are the ones that run to someone outside to help them at the first opportunity such as lawyers. It is stupid paint after all. Tell them to paint it again. It isn’t that hard.
[/QUOTE]

Obviously I’m not getting my point across Shagnasty. I’ve done exactly what you recommend countless times. His stupid, incompetent construction manager either loses it or sticks it in a folder and forgets he has it. I’ve printed out pictures showing how I want something done and the idiot still does it wrong – not because he’s evil, but just because he’s stupid. I can’t tell you how many times things have had to be redone because of this stupid ass.

The builder is close to going insane and has to spend practically all his time at a development in Georgia trying to save himself from utter ruin. (multiple stuccoed houses where the stucco is failing – birds are building nests in it.) My house is so close to being finished that I can’t afford to drive this guy over the edge so I have to try to nurse the situation just a little further. But at the same time somebody has to fix this painting problem it looks like crap.

36

[QUOTE=Myglaren]
Under such circumstances it might be time to cut your (potential) losses and get moved in ASAP. Couldn’t cost much (as a % of the cost of the house so far) to get some remedial painting done.

Cut the contractor loose before he drags you down with him
[/QUOTE]

Yes, you have shown that there is a lot more to it than you originally stated, part of it is that you don’t want to shaft a guy who has been shafting you.

Move in, ignore the paint, get individual contractors (tradesmen) to finish off bits and pieces.

Not joking, a large clean room can be repainted in about 20 mins, what takes time is the preparation - and if it is newly and badly painted, there is no preparation.

You are on some sort of guilt trip, and the guy deserves no sympathy.

37

[QUOTE=Myglaren]
Under such circumstances it might be time to cut your (potential) losses and get moved in ASAP. Couldn’t cost much (as a % of the cost of the house so far) to get some remedial painting done.

Cut the contractor loose before he drags you down with him
[/QUOTE]

I’m seriously considering doing just as you suggest. The movers are already scheduled for January 15th, and I’m either going to have sh*t or get off the pot very soon. I still owe the guy over $100,000 and I can’t believe he can justify his behavior when he could be a 100 grand richer by just doing what he should do anyway.

Although in SC he could just file a mechanics lien which the state mandates must be cleared within 90 days.

38

Can’t you fire him and hire some other company?

39

I am a licensed contractor. Under no circumstances should you close on the house. Once he gets that last check, he’s GONE. Never, EVER to return your phone calls, or fix anything. Get your bank involved, their inspector. Also before you close, get a certified housing inspector, an accredited, highly respected one that’s been doing it for a long time. Should cost between $300-500. Make sure he is completely independent. Do not pay any more money before the things on his list are fixed. And my strong suspicion is there is going to be a lot of things that need to be fixed.

Don’t get caught up in politics, personal relationships, pissing contests, or some artificial time line. Stay at the condo longer if you need, to, $1600 a month is way less than having a sub par house that you just spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on, that no one will buy because it is defective. Houses are investments, probably one of the biggest for most people.

DO NOT CLOSE ON THE HOUSE UNTIL YOU ARE COMPLETELY SATISFIED.

Think of it this way, Ring, the paint is just what you SEE that’s obviously wrong. Just think about all the things that you can’t see.

Bah, I hate guys like this. He probably isn’t paying his subcontractors, so he either had to get scag painters, or they’re unwilling to come back and fix it until they do get paid.

Check the local builder’s association for any complaints, also check the county in which his business is located in for any lawsuits or small claims.

GET A LIST OF ALL SUBCONTRACTORS, EVERY SINGLE ONE. make sure that EVERY SINGLE ONE has signed a mechanic’s lien waiver, and has been paid in full. Otherwise, no matter how much you pay this guy, the subs can still come after you.

40

[QUOTE=Ring]
Some further information in case anyone is interested. This guy is 67 years old. 5 years ago he divorced his lifelong mate and married a woman 30 years younger than him. Within a year they had a baby, and this woman of his dreams is demanding she be treated, monetarily, like the gold digger she is.

[/QUOTE]

No, we’re not interested because this information in completely and totally irrelevant to the problem at hand.

Go the way of the lawyer, go the way of the real man like Shagnasty, but don’t even think for a second about his wife or personal situation.

He’s a contractor. It’s his job to build houses, not yours. That’s what he’s supposedly being paid for. Write him a letter if you write and explain exactly what needs to get fixed and that there’s $100 K for him at the end of it when he does those things. Also, get a reputable housing inspector as others have stated so you can know everything that is wrong with the property, not just the obvious stuff like painting screw-ups.

Okay, now I’m off to paint my own kitchen.