I have clearly been limiting the case to Christians.
You do not have to a Christian in order to to learn the facts about Christian doctrine.
I agree, with the understanding that “revere” does not mean worship in the sense that a god is worshiped. Has anyone in this thread disagreed?
And you know this… how?
In fact, your statement is completely wrong. The Qur’an and Hadith consistently give his name and title as ‘Isa al-Masih. ‘Isa=Jesus, and al-Masih=the Messiah. You can see the Semitic cognate between Masih and Messiah. Messiah is synonymous with Christ. So Muslims do call him exactly “Jesus Christ” in Arabic.
I agree with this 100%. Maybe just stick to the big picture and cool it on the details? 
I think some people are confusing Islam with Gnosticism, some of whose sects taught that the God of the Old Testament was not the same God as Jesus, with all that stuff about the Demiurge and so forth. That was pretty explicitly rejected by the Church.
Islam didn’t exist until hundreds of years after Christianity, so the early fathers never got a chance to react to it until after church doctrine was settled. (I know that Muslims would object, saying that Islam existed from the beginning of time.) But that means that Muslims would agree that their God is the same as the God of the Old Testament. That’s why Christianity and Islam and Judaism are thought of as Abrahamic faiths. All worship the God of Abraham.
Judaism is the earliest religion, and worshipped (eventually) one God. Christianity then came along, and identifed Jesus as one with that one God. Islam came along last of all, and identified themselves as worshipping that one God as well, but Christianity said that Jesus is one of the Persons of the Trinity and Islam said He wasn’t, and that Muhammed was the last prophet and the final revelation.
But all three religions agree on who they are worshipping. Wheaton College is wrong, IOW.
Regards,
Shodan
How can they be wrong? It’s their doctrine.
No, it’s their chosen interpretation of what constitutes a violation of a policy statement - chosen interpretation rather than necessary inference.
It will be interesting to see if/how Dr Hawkins defends herself. I don’t see much point in us outsiders arguing whether Wheaton’s statement of faith which affirms the deity of Jesus is at odds with a statement that Muslims worship the same God when Islam denies the deity of Jesus.
I will say that her defense needs to be more robust that quoting Francis, since whatever Catholics think would have absolutely no weight at Wheaton.
LOL. Until Jews recognize Jesus as fully God, they aren’t worshiping the same God as Christians. Yahweh is the same guy in both; Jesus is not.
And regardless of “how you were raised,” or who told you what, the God in the statement of faith from Wheaton is a triune God within which Jesus Christ is fully God.
I think in practice, there is a closer kinship Christians feel to Jews, because, after all, Christians pretty much swiped Yahweh and modified him–giving him a son and a holy spirit component that are fully God.
On the other hand, for Christians, Islam took their version of Yahweh and stripped out Jesus and the holy spirit as integral parts of God. So Christians are less inclined to be charitable about statements Muslims make (Muslims changed the Christian God) than statements Jews make (Christians changed the Jewish God).
Hey; I’m not pretending any of this is fair, equitable or non-hypocritical. It’s not my system to defend. I’m just letting you know that a Jew who does not believe in the deity of Jesus does not, by the Wheaton statement of faith, believe in the same God as Christians even if Christians are laxer toward Jews than Muslims when it comes to statements about the God they believe in.
It’s not a question of what “Christianity” thinks.
It’s a question here of what the Wheaton statement of faith says.
It’s been quoted above, but let me refresh your memory:
*
“WE BELIEVE that Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, was true God and true man, existing in one person and without sin; and we believe in the resurrection of the crucified body of our Lord, in His ascension into heaven, and in His present life there for us as Lord of all, High Priest, and Advocate.”*
Ironically, Judaism traditionally holds that Islam stands closer to it than does Christianity. So, for example, a Jew would be allowed to pray in a mosque but not in a Christian church.
One suspects Wheaton is not alone in worrying about offending donors.
But in fairness, the reason the donors might take offense here is because the position taken by Dr Hawkins is so at odds with the statement of faith those same donors are donating to protect and promote.
Are you sure you are not lance Orwell?
Not hard to understand, though…
Yahweh was expanded by Christians to include two more components: Jesus Christ and the holy spirit.
Muslims stripped out the trinity back to a one-guy show, so at least their monotheism is closer to that of the Jews than the Christians.
As to what constitutes “the same God,” see Orwell. Once your God tells you to elevate Mohammed’s message from God above all the prophets before, is it the same God anymore? Depends on who you ask, and how much double-speak you are interested in tolerating.
I get no sense that Dr. Hawkins is seeking a ‘defense.’
Welcome to the boards, Jayhawker Soule, and thank you for your thoughtful posts and intelligent perspective in this thread.
Chief Pedant, are you an evangelical or of an evangelical background? I’m not sure you understand how big a deal it is to some Christians to have their god be the god of the Old Testament and the same as the Jewish god (even if they think Jews are doing their own religion wrong). It’s a pretty short skip to considering the Muslim tradition merely a heretical offshoot of the same Abrahamic tradition.
Now, it could be imagined that the “angel” who talked to Mohammed was actually a deceiver, a djinni or a devil perhaps. But does that mean that a Muslim praying to “Allah” is not heard by the same god as a Christian praying to same?
Thank you.
Interesting.
When Muslims were being persecuted in Mecca, groups of them migrated to Ethiopia and were given refuge by the Christian Negus (king). When a delegation of Meccans traveled there to get the Negus to expel the Muslims from his protection, the king summoned them to explain what they were about. Ja‘far ibn Abī Tālib spoke for the Muslims.
He asked Ja‘far: “Do you have with you something of what your Prophet brought concerning God?” “Yes,” replied Ja‘far. “Then recite it to me,” requested the Negus.
Ja‘far recited for him the portion of Surat Maryam that tells the story of Mary giving birth to Jesus. The Negus was moved to tears and said to the Muslims: “The message of your Prophet and that of Jesus came from the same source.”
That wasn’t all. Next the Meccans accused the Muslims of slandering Jesus. Again the Negus summoned them to explain, asking “What do you say about Jesus, the son of Mary?” Ja‘far said: “Regarding him, we only say what has been revealed to our Prophet.” "What is that? asked the Negus.
Ja‘far replied: “Our Prophet says that Jesus is the servant of God and His Prophet, His spirit and His word which He cast into Mary the Virgin.”
The Negus exclaimed: “By God, Jesus the son of Mary was exactly as your Prophet has described him.” He turned to the Muslims and said: “Go, for you are safe and secure. Whoever obstructs you will pay for it and whoever opposes you will be punished. For, by God, I would rather not have a mountain of gold than that any of you should come to any harm.” Cite: Sirat Ibn Ishaq.
Knowledge of such things is essential if anyone is to comment on Islam in relation to Christianity and wishes to be taken seriously.
Uh…I don’t want to embarrass you–well; I guess I do–but in general when you quote, it’s best to make a full quote. I even took the time to underline “true God” for you in the Wheaton statement of faith. Wheaton’s statement of faith affirms that, and it is a requirement that faculty sign off on that doctrine. Muslims do not accept that.
I’m not sure what a local tale in Ethiopia has to do with Wheaton’s assertion that Jesus is true God. And I’m not sure how many mullahs you’d get to agree that Islam considers Jesus true God.
If Larycia Hawkins tries to use your anecdote, I rather suspect the same fine point will come up: Do Muslims think Jesus is true God?
Then you haven’t been following the story.
She has been suspended and Wheaton proposes to strip her of tenure, if not her job.
Dr Hawkins intends to defend herself.
Dr Hawkins* "said she will not accept a proposal offered by the college to teach again next fall that would revoke her tenure for at least two years. She said the college appears to be moving toward termination, meanwhile she has rejected suggestions to resign.
“I was naively thinking they wanted to cooperate,” she said. “I have tenure, and I have to fight for that.”*
In the article it sounds like she is not interested in defending her theological position further than she has already, and one suspects that if Wheaton then terminates her, the next defense will be in court. But I don’t see her just rolling over and leaving, at least without a settlement.
She is planning to defend herself one way or another, I believe.
If I had to bet (we can revisit this in June or so), it will be a monetary settlement for Dr. Hawkins, for a probably undisclosed amount, in a private agreement.
They’ll pay her to walk quietly, and she’s not so interested in her promoting her agenda at Wheaton that she would refuse real money.
This fight has been brewing for a while…she will take the money and go. Shouldn’t take more than a few months so she can start teaching somewhere else in the fall for the new school year.
Thanks for the update.
I’m unpersuaded by your argument because it’s seriously incoherent. It’s so far removed from the actual question that it isn’t even wrong. What you dismiss as “a local tale in Ethiopia” has far-reaching major significance, as it is the starting point for the entirety of Muslim-Christian relations. It shows that from the beginning Christians accepted that Muslims worship the same Godhead and shared similar beliefs. In Islam, Jesus is the Messiah and the Word. You haven’t begun to address these facts. If doctrinal or theological differences produce different “Gods,” then the 40,000 different Christian sects are worshiping up to 40,000 different “Gods,” which is why your argument can’t hold any water.
This sort of thing is why I quickly weary of theological debates. It all crumbles into incoherence in the absence of primary agreement on certain shared premises. Without first agreeing to share any premises, the different arguments cannot even engage one another in any significant way.