I can see the O.P. having a point here. He is only being realistic about consumerism and interests within the meat producing industry. I just wish he would not be so negative toward those of us who choose not to include dead animals in our diets and lifestyles for our various reasons.
It could be that his angry approach is possibly influenced by his stated personal commitment to being a carnivore.
Perhaps he might consider adding a little roughage to his diet, as it may be a clogged colon situation.
She has not been at all negative towards those who choose a plant-based diet for whatever reason, including the reason of not wanting to participate in any way in the death of any animal. In fact you will find that she has been respectful and approving.
Again (and again and again and again) I am not antivegan or vegetarian. I don’t care at all. I am against promoting a plant based diet as a means of combating the suffering of food animals. Because I think it is a waste of good intentions and resources that could be applied to better strategies for acheiving that goal.
Maybe just a tad negative?
No, I don’t think so. Realistic. People love animal flesh, and rightly so - it’s extremely nutritious and tasty. Our love of animal flesh (along with cooking) almost certainly has somewhere between “a lot” and “everything” to do with why we are the ruling species, we have evolved to seek out meat in our diet, it’s built in to the DNA. Combine that with the fact that people are generally (and logically) primarily concerned with their own desires, particularly in matters as fundamental as diet, and the number of people choosing not to eat animal flesh (if they have an actual choice available about it, many don’t of course) will always be relatively small overall.
If that is the case then I will turn in my membership to the ruling species club.
But really I am not trying to convince you not to eat meat, the world is the way it is, and I am not so far out as to expect much change. I do not want to feel hopeless however, no one does.
Wait, I thought it was our opposable thumbs?
I always thought it was because whales have such a hard time getting around on land.
Seriously though, a love for cooking? If that were the case, the fast food industry would be about as prolific as vegan co-ops.
“our love of animal flash” and “cooking”
another way to say: meat and cooked food.
I really mulled this thread around in my head, and yesterday received the view point of a man who orders organic meat in our local health food store. It was an eye opener for me, because he was completely along the lines of the OP.
He even tried to enlist me (knowing that I was not a meat eater) into his cause of demanding more wholesome and ethically raised animals for his healthier plate of flesh. He claimed that I was being unrealistic to not go along, since it would only mean worse circumstances for the animals that I was suppose to have compassion for.
Is it possible that he was just trying to co-opt my beliefs-- in order to get healthier animals for him to eat?
He also stressed the hopelessness of ever believing that people could evolve out of killing for food.
How does your not eating meat make anything worse for any animal? I can understand differing over tactics, but this seems pretty stupid.
I mean that I had not given much thought to these issues before. I just went along with my own thing, not eating meat for health reasons, and because I do not agree with animals suffering- so as to feed my self. I have never joined any group concerning this issue, I was never an activist about this choice- that I made for myself many years ago.
I think the meat guy really believed what he was taking about–stupid–OK. I generally think that it is bad will to think of others -as agents to do one’s bidding. He wants organic meat, and If I am stupid enough to believe that to help ease the suffering of animals (that irregardless will be raised for food), that I should demand the animal’s right to be ethically and humanely treated-while being fattened for slaughter.
I am not that stupid. But I have never even recognized or understood this mentality until I read this thread. I guess I am saying, the thread sparked an awareness level for me that had not been there before, as I saw the issue as ever so simple. And thank you for that, your input had educated me.
Read it again, you misunderstood.
It is correct, and it is exactly my point: whatever your personal choice, the fact is that meat eaters will go on eating meat. The more pressure applied through whatever means are available to the meat producers (whether you are actually eating meat or not) the better, because they need to get the message that it is important for their bottom line to raise their animals humanely.
And that way, instead of simply looking at a tally sheet that indicates X fewer animals born to suffer (which alleviates no actual suffering of any kind) we can look at more and more living, breathing animals who are not suffering anymore.
No, I didn’t. But I will say that florez probably meant conditions for animals won’t get better where I took him to be saying they would get worse.
Yes, you did.
You said:
The man was NOT asking him to eat meat. The man was asking him to join in his “demand” of meat producers.
Then yes, I misunderstood that.
It’s rather strange that you keep calling it stupid.
Do you dislike animal suffering? Do you understand that “suffering” is only experience by living, breathing, conscious beings? Do you understand that “suffering” is something that lasts longer than the split second it takes to go from alive to dead?
Suffering:
Forced to lie in a pen for months and years, unable even to stand, while suckling endless babies and breathing ammonia.
Suffering:
Being forced to spend your life in a cage with no floor crammed up against other animals and their waste in constant light so you keep producing as many eggs as possible.
**Not suffering:
**Hanging out in the farmyard, wallowing in mud if you’re a pig and pecking at the ground if you’re a chicken, getting regular healthy food that you eat normally, having a place to go to get out of the elements if needed. In other words, just being what nature made you, having regular meals and medical care, and being protected from natural, violent, prolonged predation.
Not suffering:
Being stunned unconscious, then killed while you are unconscious.
If you care about genuine suffering, what in the world is “stupid” about wanting animals to be raised “free range” and slaughtered quickly and cleanly? It doesn’t mean you have to start eating them yourself, but why would it be “stupid” to add your voice to the demand of the ones who have the power over inflicting or not inflicting that suffering? What is intelligent or useful about not doing so? What are you aceiving that is better by, it appears, saying: “I want total abolition of raising animals for food and that is the only thing I will ever contribute to trying to make happen. It’s all or nothing”? Especially since there’s no way you will get what you want?
Seriously! I hear that X number of fewer animals born will be a victory for you, but isn’t it even MORE of a victory for the ones that ARE born to have easier lives?
I get it now that Stoid and the organic meat guy are coming from a position of caring. It is no longer black and white to me. They do not want food animals to suffer, they are all about the love. OK
On the other hand, I have a problem with a less than direct approach. I do not see animals as food, I do not believe in killing animals for food.
Even when the meat guy was passionate about his desire to end the suffering of food animals, it was still HIS FOOD that he was passionate about. It is not the same for me.
Whoever made the comparison of -working to make the slave’s life less miserable or working to free the slave entirely- makes more sense to me. Maybe I should become more involved in animal rights activism.
OK. But let me ask you…why? I’m serious. I’m not asking why you personally don’t want to eat animals, that’s whatever it is and it’s fine. But you “don’t believe in killing animals for food” because…?
Assuming that said animal has had a very normal, pleasant existence, what is your problem with someone else killing that animal very quickly and humanely so that it does not suffer, and then eating it? I am not trying to get in your face or give you a hard time, it is a completely sincere question that I am asking because I want to understand what the issue is - because in the case I just described, I honestly cannot imagine why it would bother you.
Let me clarify that; I understand why you or anyone would and does object to the secondary problems associated with meat production, the economic and environmental and what have you. That’s all crystal clear to me.
But I’m assuming that you have a problem with killing animals for food for a reason that has to do with the animal itself in some way. So again, in the scenario I present, do you have a problem and if you do, can you please describe exactly what that problem is? And if you find yourself getting ready to some version of “because the animal dies” ok, but I’m asking you in advance to be more specific regarding what you think is bad or wrong about that.
I cannot speak to that man’s mind and heart, only my own. My concern for animals that are raised to be eaten is not concern about my food, because those animals aren’t food. I am concerned with living, breathing animals, those beings that have feelings and consciousness and thoughts and pretty much everything that I have, just in different degrees. We share the planet, we are all “earthlings” and I care very much if they are miserable.
It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with what happens to their carcasses after they are dead. If those same animals were allowed to die naturally after a long life, if they were buried in a grave with songs sung over it only to be eaten by worms, none of it would make the tiniest bit of difference to how I feel about the experience they have while they are alive to have it.
I care about living things. Living things, particularly animals, are not food. They are living beings.
All living things are destined to become food. I will be food, and so will you. But not now, while we are alive. The things that concern me about the way food animals are raised have to do with the living beings, not the food they will someday become.
What worms might want to feast on my dead body are welcome to take what they can find…but I would like to think that I originally decided not to eat meat because it seemed exploitive. Also I enjoyed the challenge of finding ways to eat, that did not involve suffering or bloodshed, yet would keep my family and myself healthy.
My daughter has always been a vegan, and we consider ourselves to be organic food consumers. We eat lots of nuts and soy products, whole grains, fresh fruits and vegetables.
I wish I had a more interesting philosophy behind it. Years have gone by, and it is just what we are, only now, I am giving it more thought.
Animals should not exist in this world. They only live to feel pain. They are bad for the environment. Cows, for example. We shouldn’t kill cows for food, we should wipe them all out for being polluters. We can make exceptions for some animals like bees, but for the most part the world would be better off without them.
Thanks for explaining your personal position. But I’m still interested what your objection is,* if any at all*, to animals be killed for other people’s food, assuming the animal has a decent life and a quick death? I realize you might be figuring it out, and that’s great, I’m just clarifying the question.