It’s not even miscommunication. It’s turning Mariluz into MAH RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE looooooo OOS! while making the kind of faces you’d expect from Jerry Lewis or Jim Carrey. I don’t know whether to say “gesundheit” or call an ambulance.
And that’s if they get the first vowel right, and the ones who aren’t being jerks about it: they simply don’t know how to deal with my name unless I massage it a bit first.
Nevertheless, I believe the only city in Canada that officially has different names depending on the language (as in Genève/Genf/Ginevra) is Grand-Sault/Grand Falls, New Brunswick. Most Canadian examples simply involve pronouncing the city’s official name with the target language’s phonetics. (Quebec is interesting, though, since in English it’ll almost always be rendered as Quebec City, while in French it’s simply Québec, no need to specify ville de Québec.)
I have seen Trois-Rivières written as Three Rivers on old English-language maps, but I don’t believe they do this anymore. I also remember a controversy when the city of Orléans, Ontario (now part of Ottawa) was spelled as Orleans on official documents and signs. (Orléans is a traditionally French-speaking neighbourhood that is now probably mostly English-speaking due to a large influx of suburban families.)
In English, at least, my rule of thumb is to pronounce the word as in the other language, but with English phonemes. This isn’t Anglicization, because that will often change the phonemes to fit the spelling. That is a bad idea. But I think it’s also generally a bad idea to try and affect a foreign accent while saying a foreign word in English. It only ever works for native speakers of that language.
There are a few extra phonemes I’ll throw in. I will nasalize vowels in French, and I’ll roll or flip /r/s in many languages. There are probably a few other exceptions that just don’t have English equivalents. Plus the American /r/ is just so characteristic that it sounds wrong in many other languages–if the word hasn’t been Anglicized. (So bore-ree-doh (burrito) sounds fine, but I’m not going to say pear-ro for perro.)
The point is that it never sounds like I’m changing my accent. That sounds pretentious at best, and more often just completely butchers the accent completely.
I would say either mah-dih-LOOTH (with the alveolar tap for the d, as is common in American English) or mah-dih-LOOSE. IPA: /mɒ.ɾɨˈluθ/ or /mɒ.ɾɨˈlus/. I’d probably assume the second pronunciation by default, but switch to the first one because you came from Spain.
I would make no attempt whatsoever to use an accent. So short /i/ (ee) becomes /ɨ/ (ih) as happens in most English accents. And /a/ merges with /ɒ/, as occurs in my accent.
You are speaking about at least a couple of different things. One is the movement to use foreign language place names in English instead of older English language ones. Another is to mimic the foreign pronunciation of people’s and place names. They can overlap.
This is not unknown in other languages but it’s definitely more common in English, and more lately than it used to be. I attribute it partly to the general affectation where being more ‘multicultural’ is taken as a sign of virtue in the English speaking world, but more specifically some sense that English as the de facto international language should be less Anglo-centric. I guess the second has a little more merit than the first.
In fairness I notice that Spanish language media in the US usually does pronounce non-Latino names with an ‘American’ accent, the speaker is going along in whatever variation of accent they have in Spanish, and switches to an American accent to say the name. Parallel to what many English speakers in the US now seem to think is necessary, to switch in mid-sentence to some kind of Spanish accent to say a Spanish name. Which sounds goofy and pretentious to me, but styles change.
Some of the examples people have given are that the languages writing system can’t capture the English pronunciation of English words. This is not 100% untrue among languages using the Latin alphabet or variations since the letters can have different sounds, but it’s more true typically in completely different writing systems. This was mentioned for Japanese. If you pronounce certain English words (whether common or proper nouns) commonly used in Japanese the English language way, even Japanese who speak some English will often not understand. Same is true in Korean or Chinese. It’s just practical to use the foreign language pronunciation when speaking those languages. However, I still view it as a flaw in a person’s English when eg. the many Korean speakers in my area of New Jersey pronounce the state’s name as Nyu Jeoh-ji (뉴저지) when speaking English. It’s not the end of the world, and I mispronounce stuff in Korean all the time trying hard not to, but it’s still not correct, and people should try to pronounce things correctly for the language they are speaking. The idea of shifting accent for one word in language B when you are speaking language A is again more dubious IMO.
Same theme of completely different writing systems, a subset of case 1 originally mentioned, where the accepted English word changes to the foreign name is where the previous ‘foreign name’ was just a different transliteration. That’s true of most of the large number of changes of Chinese place names (though a few places actually changed names in Chinese since 1949), and the current ones aren’t always more ‘accurate’ (compared to what? Chinese pronunciations of the same place obviously vary a lot by dialect). Likewise less numerous places in Korea commonly referred to in English. Some English speakers ask ‘why did they change Pusan to Busan?’. Nothing changed in Korean, different transliteration system adopted (in the ROK, it’s still Pusan in DPRK’s system) ,but neither ‘P’ nor ‘B’ as English speakers would generally pronounce them is necessarily exactly right for the beginning consonant sound, and you could debate which one is closer.
There’s Church Point NS / Pointe de l’Église N-É. I’ve not been there for quite a while, but it seems to have different names in English and French.
The reason for “Quebec City” in English but not “Ville de Québec” in French is that French grammar is more precise.
“I’m going to Quebec.” [ambiguous]
“Je vais aller à Québec.” [precise]
My father always referred to it as “Three Rivers”. None of that French stuff for the son of an Orangeman.
With me, it’s a personal issue: my parents took me back to the States as an infant and returned here when I was 6, so English was my first language. That means that for many years I spoke with a heavy American accent, and while I’ve managed to get it mostly under control, I’m still very sensitive about it. As a result, whenever I hear a non-native English speaker try to say an English-language word with an “American” accent, my immediate reaction is that they’re making fun of me. Again.
Also… your name isn’t actually Nava?
And this explains how I became incredibly lost on a solo trip to Belgium a couple years ago. I thought I was losing my mind until I figured this out.
Unless I know my pronunciation of a foreign word is close enough to be intelligible to a native speaker, I use the English pronunciation. It’s amazing how what you think you hear and how you’re actually pronouncing foreign words is so often completely wrong.
Certain names like America (less so United States) are almost universally understood in foreign countries. And it would likely be considered pretentious if I used the proper pronunciation of Hawai’i (ha-VAI-ee) instead of Hawaii (ha-WHY-ee) when telling a non-English speaker where I live.
I don’t know if is pretentious or not, but I do try to use the local pronunciation of place names or how a person introduces themselves. In the US as well as elsewhere. Since I can’t speak more than a few words of languages other than English, I know I don’t have it perfect, but I can at least try. I am not going to act as if I’m smarter that the people who use that word daily.
There are places in the US in which the pronunciation of a place name is not what most people might think, so when in Rome…
Thoreau, NM, was usually pronounced through instead of like the author’s name. n the same vein, Dumas, TX is DOO-mus and not like the writer.
One of my favorites, which I’m still trying to wrap my head around: Aix-la-Chapelle, Aachen, Aquisgrán (French, Dutch, Spanish).
And no, only because all three spellings begin by the same letter don’t expect them to begin with the same sound: they do not.
The family and I just saw a documentary about a Taiwanese ultra marathon runner. The movie was in Mandarin and subtitles in English.
There were a couple of English words that they used in the movie, including “long day” which indicates the day in the five- or six-day race which covers the longest distance.
That was strange. It happens much more frequently in Japanese.
“Mariluz” seems very easy to convert to an Anglicized pronunciation. I realize it won’t be pronounced like your family would pronounce it, and maybe you don’t like the sound of your name Anglicized (not judging) … but most English speakers can come kind of close, can’t they?
I’d start off with my dialect’s version of “Mary-loose” and work with you from there. Can’t promise I’ll always nail the Spanish “-ar-” at conversational speeds, but I will faithfully follow your lead on your “-z” (/θ/ or /s/, as you prefer).
Hmmm … thinking about this some … for a lot of American speakers, telling them to pronounce Mariluz as “muddy-loose” might get them a little closer to the mark, if not spot-on perfect.
Only, there already is an Anglicized version. Well, two, depending on dialect: Marylou or Marilou work just fine, I just need to ask people to say both and pick the one which mangles the first vowel less. I’ve been getting people through this for almost 40 years and even got a legal name change to make things easier; you’re trying to help but you just joined the party.
Nava … that “a” in your name … that’s just a regular castellano /a/, right? Or no?
Yes; it simply cannot be anything else, not the way Spanish spelling works. Why the pronunciation of the first vowel in “Mary/Mari” changes in English depending on how the second vowel is pictured beats me; all I know is that it does. There’s other spelling stuff about English that I’ve eventually found out where it comes from, but not that particular detail. And some day I’ll find out why the two /k/ in Skokie* are spelled differently…
I don’t mind if you can’t get the vowels or consonants right - in fact, in most cases I’d prefer you not even try. What you can do, however, is stress the right vowel. Anyone can do that. Case in point: people - mostly Americans - who pronounce my city’s name as “TELL-ah-viv”. Ugh.
Where should the stress or stresses be? In Spanish since it’s written as two words we stress it twice, and following the rules of Spanish spelling it’s TELaBIB (the viv is a tad stronger). It kind of ends up sounding as if it was spelled Tela Bib, really. I hope those Shepardite TV correspondants haven’t been leading us astray, but who knows…
Note that “Tel” is in the construct state; sometimes you see it spelled as Tel-Aviv. I don’t know off the top of my head how that affects the pronunciation precisely, but the end result seems to be that the stress is only on the final syllable of “aviv”, as if it were one word. Also it’s definitely v, not b, in Hebrew.
What’s the “construct state”?