The Govt. of The Netherlands propose to ban the wearing of the burqa or veil in all public places but Dutch Muslims protest against this.
They feel that such a ban would make the country’s Muslims feel alienated and victimised.
The Dutch Govt. state that the wearing of these items of clothing disturb public order and safety.
The Dutch ruling centre-right coalition is expected to win this proposal.
If they do win can we expect to see the ban enforced in other European countries?
I think you should have a right to reasonable expression in public areas, and I don’t think burqas/veils/other head coverings are unreasonable.
Some societies disagree, of course. I tend to think most decisions taken to ban the wearing of these items is done out of bigoted reasons in societies that have been historically homogeneous and are not used to integrating different population groups.
Is the question whether this will be accepted elsewhere or whether the ban is acceptable?
I can’t say one way or the other whether the women are being ‘oppressed’ or expressing their religious views, but in the interest of preserving the right to the latter I think the ban is ridiculous. Is there a particularly high rate of crime by those wearing the garb that would justify the claim of it disturbing “public order and safety?” Even so, many in the US associate sagging pants and oversized t-shirts with gang members, but they are not banned in public.
One Dutch politician defended the ban by stating it would help develop tolerance. I guess on the theory if you prohibit people from doing things you don’t like, it becomes easier to tolerate them being around.
Octagon The question was neither of those, my final para. asked if we could expect to see a ban in other European countries.
Personally I think it’s possible that such a ban will be introduced but whether or not it will be rigidly enforced is another matter.
We’ve been discussion this in this Pit thread, btw.
I disagree with your logic. They’re banning face coverings, not burqa’s. There’s a differense. It’s logical to ban people from wearing masks in area’s where identification is in the public interest.
To answer your question, yes there is a particularly high rate of crime by people wearing masks. It happens every day in banks and businesses. It is not comparable to the wearing of baggy pants in matters of security.
Doesn’t wearing a burqua single you out from the rest of the populace by definition? That’s alienation right there. For the muslim community to say the opposite is almost crazy talk.
With that being said, I don’t see wearing a burqua to be unreasonable. I understand that identifying the populace increases security, but with additional security comes the degredation of freedoms. I just hope that the muslims also agree and don’t…for lack of better words…take it for granted and try and cooperate.
Even though they have the right to NOT cooperate.
I note that you started the pit thread. There’s a certain amount of irony in your statement about the tolerant Dutch given the intolerance that occured over a cartoon.
When people come together to live in a society, some restrictions will be put on them. The more crowded and complex it becomes the more guidelines (laws) are needed. At some point it becomes a good idea to construct traffic laws, as they help us live together. Same for the ban on any type of face masks. You shold be able to be recognized and ehld accountable for your actions. I think this will spread to other countries. The faster the better. While the default should be for us to be as accepting as possible of such personal decisions of expression, that freedom is not absolute.
I think you’re confusing the right of an individual to be self expressive with the right of a community to be secure. One does not negate the other. There is a logic behind the ability to identify a person in the event of a crime. I would not feel comfortable in a bank or store if there are masked people in the vicinity nor would I expect such institutions to allow it. While masks ares used by a religion to enforce sexual morals they are also used by criminals as an aid to commit crimes.
I don’t feel that I’m confusing it necessarily. Self-expression can definitely run into civic security.
I also understand the logic and I also understand that some muslims might want burquas to be worn for chauvinistic reasons. I disagree with that logic, but that doesn’t mean I can tell them they can’t have their logic when it’s not really harming anyone.
Sure, it has the potential to harm if you can’t identify someone because of all the burquas around. The potential isn’t enough to make me have to pass a law to limit this expression of freedom, as (in my opinion…) as silly as it is.
How safe would you feel in a bank or in court if there were people there wearing masks For the record, it would bother me. It would also bother me to have the KKK march down my street expressing their religious freedoms without any way to identify them.
Regardless of my opinion on the Muslim religion I would not try to enforce any restrictions on them beyond that which directly affects me. Public access to masked individuals is something to be avoided. I can see debating the level to which it occurs but not the overal need to do it.
So, what about Halloween or carnivals?
What about them?
Well, you know, masks and such.
Do the Dutch celebrate Holloween the same way it’s done in the US?
It’s certainly the obvious example of where lines are drawn. It was actually the first gray area I could think of when I entered the discussion. Masks of any kind are not appropriate in a bank, or court of law or most businesses. Depending on how specific the law is written (and it will have to be specific) it could lead to the absense of masks (as part of a costume) in street carnivals. When you look at something like Mardi Gras you can make allowances for it through a singular security check. It’s not something that is practical on a daily basis.
Probably not to the same degree. They do street parades, though.
Banks are private properties. Ignoring for a minute that this thread is about a ban in public places, should the government decide what you can wear on private properties?