I honestly think I’ve never been a ‘problem poster’ here in 10years. Moreso than that, while I know that not everyone has agreed w/me, I’ve not broken any rules here. More than that, I’ve actively supported the administration, have tried to ‘help’ in every way possible, and, in short, have been a mostly positive poster here.
I also feel now that while I’ve rarely posted stuff that would be considered a rule violation under the new rules, I’m also not considered a valued participant.
Why?
I’m not asking that as a personal preference despite the image some posters around here seem to have of me as I’m quite capable of making even a seasoned sailor blush. And I know that the suggestion is going to be very unpopular among the populace. Still, it would eliminate a lot of the confusion and hair-splitting that is going on and would make the place a lot more civil and, in my opinion, more adult place to read and post.
There are several blue-collar forums that I frequent for tips on doing things around the house and even they don’t allow cursing or vulgarities. There are plenty of insults that fly among the posters in regard to each others’ work and plenty of political commentary as well, but everyone still manages to get their point across without obscenities.
It’s true that this would change the nature of the board considerably from what it has been, but it doesn’t seem that, barring a wholesale stampede away from here, the change would be that much of a stretch from where you’re going anyway.
Just my .02.
ETA: And by getting rid of the “vulgarites” you’ll get rid of the vulgarities they spout automatically. 
That’s the goal, yes. If you can suggest a better way to accomplish it than what we’ve come up with so far, I’m happy to hear it. However, with all respect, saying we should have “a general clean-up” is not a useful piece of advice. It’s like saying all we need to do is enforce the “don’t be a jerk” rule. It’s not that simple.
Precisely. I’m not trying to restrict the range of discussion. I’m trying to limit the use of a handful of crude expressions. If people think the board will be sanitized as a result, that’s their privilege, but it’s not an argument I can take very seriously.
You’ll have to excuse me, Veb, but I’m not following the logic here. You don’t want the SDMB to be a swamp, but you apparently also think we shouldn’t impose new rules, or at least not this rule. What then would you propose?
I cannot call someone a … there’s this word, and it starts with a c, and it ends with a t, and it sounds like stunt, and I can’t call somebody that.
Hopefully, typing the above didn’t cross the line.
Can I call them a pussy? That’s the same body part as the unmentionable above. Can I call them a wuss? That’s a cross between a wimp and a pussy. Can I call someone a dick? Back in the day my sister used to say I was a sexist when I’d refer to someone as a (nasty banned word meaning female genitalia) but she never called me on saying that the Premier was a dick, or her new friend was a prick, or what a cock that (incestuous male child) she’d met was.
Are we going for the same thing here, where I will still be able to refer to my fellow posters as cocks, dicks, pricks, and knobs as long as I don’t suggest that they might be vaguely girlish?
There might be a loophole in this logic, but I wouldn’t want to look for it, just based on the name.
I evidently missed where they said we can’t say “bastard.” Cite?
I objected to the ban on this, but I don’t expect anyone to notice because it was in the Kilo-Thread
There’s something horrifyingly Primary School-esque about all this, having “Bad Words” and “Allowed Words”. Will there be a Dress Code as well? “Members and Guest must post whilst suitably clothed and attired; posting in one’s underwear or tattered/worn-out clothes shall no longer be acceptable”.
We don’t need a Reich Language Ministry or Department of Linguistic Affairs here, guys. The English Language is a colourful and varied thing, used differently by different people in different places. I’ve made this point before, but the US is not the only English-speaking country on the planet and what’s grossly obscene there is impolite at best somewhere else, and vice-versa (“Fanny Pack” means something entirely different in the UK, for example.)
Here’s a novel suggestion that will get ignored spectacularly: Accept there was nothing wrong, Abandon the proposed changes, and leave the boards alone. Unless, of course, you don’t want there to be boards anymore. A week ago I thought that was silly hyperbole, but the spin-off board that has recently been created now has considerably more posts than both Straight Dope Chicago and The Barn House forum combined, with a surprising number of Respected members.
That doesn’t mean these boards are OMG DOOMED! but I do think it illustrates the fact that there’s something wrong when a spin-off board is providing pretty much the Classic SDMB experience and people are voting with their keyboards and heading over there.
It remains to be seen, longer term, how the other board goes- but as long as the clusterfuckery continues here, there will be people abandoning (or taking an extended break from) the SDMB and heading over there. And If this current Silliness isn’t sorted out soon, you’re going to have an interesting situation of having two boards operating along the same lines and sharing members, but with radically different goals and a simmering dislike of each other…
How about “Leave things as they were”?
There’s nothing at all illogical about Veb’s post, unless you assume that this place already was a swamp, and that the new rules will fix that. Obviously, Veb feels that it wasn’t a swamp at all, and from the look of things, about 95% of the posters here agree with that assessment.
On a board with as much difference of opinion as this one has, and where people have invested so much time and effort, when so many people think you’re wrong, it might be time to consider for a moment that they might not all simply be trying to be difficult just for the sake of it, and that there might be some validity to their criticisms.
If, in that 1000-post thread, the vast majority of posters had agreed with your rule changes, i would have shrugged my shoulders, made a last post voicing my disagreement, and let it drop.
I recognize that this place is not a democracy, and that, despite the fact that you have never actually been a very interested member of the community here, you’re the guy in charge. It’s clear that you can do what you want. I just think it’s a shame that you have so little interest in paying any substantial attention to the feedback from people who have provided all the content and the feeling of community that makes this board what it is.
I also think it’s indicative of your lack of real interest in what goes on here that you blithely dismiss the critics, and have indicated on more than a few occasions that the board won’t suffer at all if the complainers take their business elsewhere. All this despite the fact that many of the people most adamantly opposed to your plan are precisely the people who have contributed the most, in terms of quantity and quality, to these boards.
While it might seem rather immodest to use myself as an example, i’ll do it because i can speak best about what i know. Of my 13,000+ posts here, thousands (i don’t know exactly how many) have been outside the Pit, and even of those inside the Pit, the vast majority have not been abusive or vulgar. I’ve had long and interesting conversations with people in a multitude of threads, and in many of those i have taken the time to produce fairly long, involved, and often rather extensively-researched posts. Even in cases where others don’t agree with my arguments, i like to think that they would agree i bring something to the discussion. And i feel the same way about plenty of people here, including many whose positions i disagree with.
Yet all this is apparently of no interest to you at all. For you, a few "Fuck you asshole"s and "Go fuck yourself"s outweigh all the positive contributions made by dozens, even hundreds, of long-term posters. That strikes me as an incredibly selfish and shortsighted position.
I’m fully aware that, if i decide to leave, the board will not collapse in my absence. I’m not deluded enough to think i’m that important. But, in the long, it’s people like me that are important to this board, even if we do display a potty mouth from time to time. If you lose enough of us, the critical mass that a place like this needs to survive will disappear, and that’s a damn shame.
Ed (and everyone else) —
My attempt at compromise. Three rules:
(1) No pitting mods in any capacity. You can’t scream at a waitress in a bar and expect to stay around to finish your drink. Same rules apply here. Any questions or concerns about mod actions belong in ATMB and ATMB rules regarding insults and civility apply.
(2) No posts consisting solely or mainly of vulgarities. Our desire is to elevate the overall tone of the BBQ Pit. If you have questions about whether a post containing vulgarities is acceptable, please email a mod before posting it. Repeated warnings may result in removal of posting privileges.
(3) Do not use the word “cunt”. Period. Full stop. Moderators will be authorized to edit the word from your post and issue you a warning. Repeated warnings may result in the removal of posting privileges.
…
My rationales:
(1) prevents the thing that I think irritates Ed the most - abuse of mods. It’s a little heavy-handed, but I think it’s a small price to pay to keep the Pit mostly intact.
(2) codifies the desire to improve the overall tone and provides a way for poster to ensure that they will not be blindsided with a warning/banning from a particularly seething post.
(3) is just a nod to the fact that Ed apparently hates the word, “cunt.” If it bothers him so much, let’s just don’t use it at all. Not just at each other, but at all. Lenny Bruce wouldn’t let me include “motherfucker” or “fuck you” though.
I think these are clear and workable and would probably address most of Ed’s concerns without killing the Pit. Thoughts?
A list of specific words is a move toward greater clarity, which is good inasmuch as the ambiguity of the new rules is one of the chief complaints now being expressed. And although I don’t like the sorts of changes currently underway at the SDMB, at the end of the day I completely understand and accept that it is Ed Zotti’s/Creative Loafing’s message board, and they can have any rules they want - I can choose to follow them or I can leave.
However, I am puzzled by one thing (please forgive me if it has been addressed and I missed it; things are flying so thick and fast in these parts that I wonder how mods and administrators are surviving at this point). Why is it okay to hurl an insult on the list at outsiders, but not at posters? I believe an example used early on in this tempest was something along the lines of “So, I can call Ann Coulter a fucktard, but I can’t call another poster a fucktard?”
What I don’t understand is the rationale behind believing that controlling the direction in which such epithets flow, but not actually eliminating them, will enhance Board civility to a significant extent.
I don’t think I’ve told another poster to f@#k off (or equivalent) or called another poster a cunt (or equivalent) even a handful of times. I don’t really get into that sort of conversation, as I am conflict-averse in terms of interpersonal communication. So, for me, the actual rule here will not affect my posting behavior. However, it has the feel of a camel getting it’s nose under the tent.
I don’t read the columns anymore, and I think this message board doesn’t really have all that much to do with The Straight Dope anymore. So, I’m just seeing The Straight Dope, The Chicago Reader, Creative Loafing, Ed Zotti, et al are just kind of like those homeless dudes who “direct” you into a metered space and expect you to tip them for it. Homeless dudes trying to make new parking regulations. ::shrug:: I like reading and posting here, but this senior modding is getting old fast.
The new approach is stupid and pathetic, but it’s workable. A considerable improvement.
It may drive some people away, but it may attract others in their place. For every person who leaves because they aren’t allowed to swear as much, there may be someone else who is more likely to join and participate because they prefer actual dialogue and debate to the juvenile hurling of swear words.
Ed’s new rules have nothing whatever to do with whether the discussion is intelligent. There is no connection between whether you are allowed to refer to another person using a sexual epithet and whether the debate is intelligent or not.
Ah, a fan of Lese Majeste laws. No. If the Mods fuck up, they should be called on it, same as anyone else.
Is this really an issue?
Look, it’s not that bad a word, OK? In at least two (2) English countries (The UK and Australia) “cunt” isn’t regarded as being this grievous affront to civilisation that it seems to be in the US. It’s not automatically meant as a heinous insult, in other words. And even if it is this Terrible Beastly Word in the US, we’re all adults (or expected to act like them) and that means occasionally seeing words we don’t like. There’s a chasmic gulf of difference between “Cunt” and, say, any Racial Epithet you might care to name. I have no problem with the former being thrown about like a beach ball at a pool party, but I think everyone can agree that the latter is inappropriate in any but the most limited settings, and never when applied to a poster on the boards.
I disagree with your views; the entire point of Ye Pitte is that it’s a free-fire zone of sorts. If posters want to call one another cunts and fuckfaces in there, let them- as long as it stays in The Pit and doesn’t start to become a regular occurrence elsewhere on the boards.
And the Pit may be beyond saving as it is, which is another point to bear in mind.
If namecalling, insults, and profanity are so very uncivil and childish, don’t allow any at all.
I may be repeating my point, but at least three other posts since mine have made arguments based on the immaturity and incivility of people who want to swear.
So don’t allow any at all, and maybe the boards ranks will swell with all the new members who have stayed away because they don’t like insults or salty talk. Why allow any at all?
My point was that Ms. Zotti’s new rules are illogical and capricious.
(And what’s the relevance of a remark being 'sexual"? Is there supposed to be some kind of logic behind that? Also, my ex-wife used to tell me to fuck off. Trust me, it wasn’t sexual.)
Bingo.
Where are all these “nothing but obscenity-filled threads”? I certainly never saw 'em and my reading on the SDMB was about 45% Pit, 45% Cafe Society and 10% GQ/GD.
So…I would very much like to see links to the oh-so-dreadful threads that prompted this change.
Yeah, I know, Ed said he didn’t want to link to the one where Lynn was called the "C-word :rolleyes: " . But certainly there have to be more than just that one. There wasn’t that much swearing in the “Colibri posts as a poster, gets butthurt and then becomes a moderator after the fact” one. There have to be more than just those two.
Please, link to 10, 15 examples of these in the last month or three. If the Pit was such a terrible morass of filth and degradation during the Veb, Fluiddruid, Giraffe era, show us. If it was so awful as to require these rules, it should be the work of minutes to slap together a quick list of “Threads that I don’t want to see any more like”. Point to the behavior you’re trying to change/control so we can work together on a solution. Where is the problem you’re trying to fix?
(Emphasis, mine.)
Knock it off with the insults. They’re not allowed in ATMB, and they don’t help the conversation.
But don’t these people just stay out of the pit, there are plenty of poster who never venture there and do just fine. I don’t doubt that the pit has stopped some people from signing up, but on the other hand I can’t really believe that these changes will make that much difference. There’s still bad words (just not directed at posters) and there’s still vitriol directed at posters (just not bad words), so both of the likely things that offended people are still there.
None of this bothers me much, I don’t think I’ve ever pitted another poster but I’m not sure Ed can achieve what he wants because peoples lines are drawn in different places and Ed’s “insult-line” is pretty sharply left of where mine (and many other posters) is.
Eventually someone will cross Ed’s line, get warned/banned, amongst a storm of protest. Rinse, repeat.
SD
Ed, can you please try to articulate just what you think the problem is that needs solving, and how you arrived at something so arbitrary and capricious as a “solution”? It might reduce the incredulous headshaking at this silliness that is pretty much all you’ve been getting in response so far.