Ed, please read this digest of reactions to New Pit Rule #2 that you've been ignoring

(Apologies for extreme length.)

Dear Ed,

Dead Badger said this elsewhere, and I think it’s true:

Having read all now-19 pages of the Pit rules have been revised thread, especially this part:

… I’ve compiled a Reader’s Digest for you of things said there, things you haven’t responded to or acknowledged, that I think are worth your attention. As Robin Goodfellow said:

These arguments are along these three lines, and I very much hope you will hear them this time:[ol]
[li]Rule #2 will not kill the Pit, but it will hurt it. Some of the “abuse” (at least as you seem to be defining it on the fly) is necessary and a force for good. Yes, there are few existing Pit rants that would be off-limits now, but some of those are priceless.[/li].
[li]We think the Pit wasn’t broken and didn’t need to be fixed. We need to see examples of the problem threads that motivated you, and an explanation of why modding with the “Don’t be a jerk” rule wouldn’t have been enough.[/li].
[li]Even if Rule #2 turns out to be absolutely necessary and hurts not a thing, please be aware of what you’re losing because of the *way *you’re enacting it.[/li][/ol]

Arguments for “abuse” in the Pit

Cite? or: Please show us what you think was broken

Ed Zotti, we’re talking to you

My apologies for not replying sooner, but I’ve been snowed with other stuff. Since there have been many complaints about vagueness, what we’ll do over the weekend - in response to a suggestion, incidentally - is post a short list of proscribed words and expressions. I realize this won’t satisfy those who think we should allow Bad Words, but at least you’ll know what the bad words are.

Ed, thanks for the reply, but please note that this particular thread DOES NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT VAGUENESS. In fact, it complains about your misrepresenting what’s being complained about.

In particular, I would appreciate seeing a response to my questions that emilyforce pasted above.

Well, I’m sorry if I misrepresented what’s being complained about. I’m not sure what else you expect me to say. I wanted to make some minor changes in the Pit rules, so I did. A legitimate complaint arose that it was unclear what was no longer allowed. So we’ll be addressing that problem. I gather some are upset that they weren’t consulted. I’m sorry they feel that way, but this happens to be a matter about which I feel strongly. I manage the business, and while I’m happy to discuss things up to a point, in the end I make the rules, OK?

CL expects me to make money on the site, and the metrics they’re interested in have to do with business matters. If as a result of these minor changes site traffic were to drop precipitously, and I mean on the order of millions of page views, I guess that would give me pause, but the chances of that occurring seem remote. Even then it comes down to the kind of site I want to run. We had this same discussion a couple months ago. If my bosses were to come to me and say, “Ed, you need to allow the users to say absolutely anything they want to each other,” I’d say that isn’t what I signed up for, and I’d resign.

Ed, for crying out loud, if you don’t want to address the points quoted, or don’t have time to, that’s fine. But your replies here simply do not address those points.

ETA: except post #6, of course :smack:

One thing should be crystal clear, even to the most vociferous of those opposing the new rules. Whether rightly or wrongly, Ed isn’t going to change his mind.

That being the case, why don’t we see how this works out in practice? The other option is to leave, but I really can’t see many people quitting over a rule change in the Pit. That really would be cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face.

And for the record, I didn’t think rule 2 was necessary once the vicious attacks on staff had been dealt with by moving those discussions to ATMB. But I’m certainly not going to let that get in the way of my enjoyment of the rest of the board.

One of the main things I admired about The Pit was its ability to moderate itself - albeit with the aid of a couple of very level-headed moderators.

Without evidence, I am reluctant to believe that there was anything occuring in there that was not being handled adequately, before you came stomping about in your big sexy boots.

Make an effort Ed, and convince me and a few others otherwise.

Very true, Ed. You are the one in charge.

I own a construction business. It’s a chew 'em up and spit them out kind of business. I like it, and I do it well. It takes a lot of moxie, and a force of will. There are some of my duties I really enjoy, and several duties I abhor.

One thing I have learned is that when making policy, you need to determine what are your issues, and what are the company’s issues.

There are many things I feel strongly about, some of them are important and not negotiable. Customer service is one. I will take a loss on a job, if that’s what it takes. Some of them are negotiable. But this is my company, and I make the decisions.

As the owner, I also have the responsibility to make sure the people I have working for me are the best I can find. Once I hire them, I have to be able to listen to them, their ideas and suggestions. Even if I don’t like what they are saying, I have faith that they have the company’s best interest at heart. I have to be able to take my ego out of the equation, and do what’s right for the company, not just for myself.

You never felt strongly about this for ten years. The SDMB did just fine, and developed it’s own persona and ethos. Wrong or right, that’s what made it what it is today. The people that have been here every day have given you advice. Take it to heart.

I think you have bigger fish to fry; more important things that need your attention, and in time, will go back to your usual level of interest in the SDMB, which is minimal.

You really don’t want to run a message board. That’s fair. I wouldn’t want to either. Especially if it wasn’t my cup of tea to begin with.

Please don’t wreck it while you come to this understanding. Any value it now has will evaporate.

I think we’re arriving at a consensus that will simplify life for all; see:

Thanks.

They were not by any stretch of the imagination “minor changes”. It’s disingenuous to represent them as such.

At least you acknowledge that posters were genuinely confused by the new rules. Not whining, not indulging in recreational staff-bashing but honestly puzzled as to what you wanted. So props for that.

What exactly was the point where you were happy to discuss things? It’s nice that you’re willing to listen now but it would have made so much more sense to discuss first, then decide. Of course it’s your board and you can do with it what you like. Power comes in equal measure to responsibility.

I didn’t notice a huge problem with The Pit or that staff were being slagged more than usual. But that was my perception and you were absolutely right to address problems you perceived. This whole mess is unusually distressing because so much trouble and ill will could have been avoided while still achieving your ends.

Speaking as a former Pit mod, I really loved the place, not the least because so many conversations ended up being thoughtful, well-argued and very interesting. It wasn’t just a swamp of vapid cussing. Sometimes obscenities were tossed around casually but nobody mocked that more remorselessly than Pit denizens. Of course the usual self-annointed carpers and board critics bashed mods for warning, bannings, etc. BUT frequently they ended up derided by more sensible posters. It was a loose but fairly efficient self-cleaning system.

Consulting posters doesn’t remotely imply a lack of power or ultimate authority. It amounts to nothing more than asking, “Whaddya think?” Some opinions offered would be frankly ridiculous. The really nifty thing about asking first is that it gives posters latitude to argue themselves around to your position. It also irons out ambiguities and fuzzy spots beforehand, which works a treat to save both face and a ton of hassle. Then it’s easy to step in, say “Okay, here’s what we’re going to do”, with posters themselves acting as supporters and enforcers.

The godawful biz-jargon “buy-in” is a damned useful concept.

I think you and the admins badly underestimated the amount of support you had.

I agree entirely with this sentence. But . . .

If, for instance, a decision has been made that Ed no longer wants his staff to be abused (a far less easy point for you or me, or, in my opinion, most posters to disagree with), that is easily solved by one simple change: All comments or complaints about moderator actions belong in ATMB.

Such a new rule would not have caused the baby to be thrown out with the bathwater.

Ed, thanks for continuing the discussion. It’s much appreciated.

You know, we could have a long discussion about better or worse ways to do this. All I know is, we made a lot of little tweaks, and they just weren’t solving the problem. So my feeling was, I’ll just jump into this with both feet, and everybody will scream and shout, and eventually we’ll wind up with something everybody can live with. Which I think is basically what’s going to happen. So it took like, what, five days? C’mon, Veb, you used to do this. That’s record time. So yeah, everybody thinks I’m an asshole. Worse things have happened.

Wow. You just don’t get it, do you?

Actually the Pit rules revision Giraffe and I cobbled together (and due credit, the Tall One did most of the heavy lifting) went remarkably smoothly. It wasn’t fast but it ticked right along. But simply putting the rough outline out there for discussion eased implementation to barely a ripple. Posters spotted some hidden snags we missed completely. Those unintended consequences can be a bitch. And all the back-and-forthing was confined neatly to one stickied thread.

The past five days aren’t any record to celebrate. It damaged how TPTB are regarded and spawned a lot cynicism. It also handed ammunition right over like a gift to the self-appointed carpers, and upset a lot of really good posters who stuck with the board through good times and bad. Screaming and shouting can be minimized.

::shrugs::

It’s water over the dam at this point. I’m just not sure that you (collective ‘you’) really get how thoroughly the board culture has changed. The freewheeling good old days, with hilarious slashdowns by Lynn and manhattan, are well and truly over. Flying by the seat of your pants just doesn’t work anymore.

Thanks, Ed, for listening. Don’t know where we’ll go from here, but it’s terrific to see a timely response.

Ed, I still have some problems with the proposed changes and with the way you have handled (or not handled) the complaints from many of the Members.

That being said, I do sense some calming down by many on both sides of this issue; some potential for compromise, and in general, just a more responsive, considerate vibe coming from you in the last few hours or so. Perhaps there is a way out of this mess yet, but part of the anger from some of us has come about because of some poor (and rather snarky) communication on your end, especially when this whole shitstorm started.

A larger part of the anger has come from the fear of the Pit losing much of its value if a overly heavy-handed approach is taken against posters who are judged to have broken some rather nebulous standard clearly understood by no one other than yourself.

Anyway-- my thoughts are a little disjointed here, I admit, but basically I am trying to compliment you on some improvement in the way you have gone about explaining your reasoning AND for sparring the whip and avoiding any knee-jerk bannings so far. I still have my problems with Rule #2, but I have some glimmer of hope that if everyone could compromise just a bit we may be able to get past this eventually, although some of the bad-feelings and pissed-offedness has been fair, quite frankly, and it’ll take some time for the bad feelings to pass. But you can do it, I hope, if you can just let us keep our freedom to express things the way we see fit unless it really, REALLY gets out of hand.

I urge you to judge these things on a case-by-case basis, leaving us the freedom we have come to love in the Pit, including calling someone a cunt if they are, well, being a cunt. Most of us can take it, you know, and I don’t think that kind of invective gets used that much anyway. A little bit of it, properly applied here and there, needn’t crash this whole thing to the ground, IMO.

Thanks.