Further to the announcements by **Giraffe **and Fluiddruid in this thread that they have left the Pit and because of intimations that Ed Zotti may make changes, and this post
it got me thinking that if Ed’s going to listen to us, he’s got to know what we want. Now, I obviously have no idea if Ed’s interested in our views (that’s not a snark: I really don’t know), but if he is, how about telling him what your views are. I’m placing it here in ATMB because I don’t think negativity would be productive.
If you were writing the rules, what would they be? I’ve just re-read them, and I’m taking as given that the ‘practical’ (‘Quoting’, ‘Do not post contact information’ etc) guidelines should remain. The ones that seem to produce discusion (notice that I’m using non-emotive words here ;)) are:
[ul]
[li]Do not threaten harm or wish death on another poster[/li][li]No hate speech[/li][li]No trolling[/li][li]Cooperate with SDMB staff[/li][li]When “non-Pit rules apply”[/li][/ul]
One poster has said that there should be no rules at all (as in The Lost Weekend). Do you agree? Would you scap just some rules? Would you amend them? Would you bring in new ones? Or would you leave it as it is?
Well, I’m pretty new here so my opinion may be meaningless, and I’ve not paid to be a member yet so maybe less than meaningless but I’m not big on heavy moderation.
I’m big on few rules:
No attacking posters’ children or families.
No taking stuff from private forums (if there are any) outside the forum
No threats
No trolls (although they can be entertaining while being run off by the membership)
No sock puppeting
Except I’d totally drop the “non-pit rules” idea.
That’s kind of like running a soccer game with the rule “Play by soccer rules, except when I say we’re playing football.” That’s just to darn arbitrary.
If a discussion breaks out in the pit, that’s ok. It should either get moved to another forum, or it stays in the pit and plays by pit rules.
Yes, I know. I don’t mean to tread on your toes. I read your thread as more ‘what should the whole Dope to be like?’ whereas mine is specifically what rules should the Pit have.
I want the pit to stay exactly the same. I don’t understand what was broken about it. If you have an arena where a large number of bright snarky people hang out, some of them are going to get pissed off at each other. Why not have an area where they can fight, rather than have to constantly lock threads and ban/suspend members.
Most moderators don’t seem to mind getting a little grief. Every pit thread I’ve seen where the complaint against a mod is unjustified results in a lot of members coming in on the mod’s side.
I agree with your entire post, this part though reminds me of why Giraffe is so well-suited for the pit. He handled any shots with a sharp sense of humour and mostly let the petty squabbles flame-out on their own.
Add me to ‘if the Pit ain’t broke so don’t fix it’ chorus. The existing rules work quite well.
To me the co-operate rule makes a certain amount of sense. You can start a separate thread to complain about a moderator’s ruling just like you’d start a pit thread to complain about a ruling in GQ or GD. The non-pit rules apply is just bizarre.
It’s the most contentious one. But if you go through it bit by bit, it makes a bit more sense.
‘failing to comply’. No argument there, really. You’ve got abide by the rules.
‘posting an insulting or abusive response’. Hmm…it is the Pit, where you’re meant to be insulting and abusive. But…we have a choice as to whether we want to be in the Pit. The Pit mods don’t, and may be they get fed up with being potential targets, and Ed is trying to get them better working conditions. Of course, you can’t separate this from the issues surrounding the types of insults.
‘persisting in arguing after being told to stop’. I guess that’s there because it gets repetitive and it derails the thread.
‘criticism of staff and/or their actions be taken to a separate Pit thread’. As above: to not derail the original thread.
When it comes to ‘Non pit rules apply’. I’ve never understood this. Why not start a new one in ATMB or MPSIMS?
The last two rules are stupid, and should be eliminated. “Non-pit rules” is probably the silliest idea I’ve ever seen here. Starting a new thread to question a mod action in an exisiting pit thread is pointless.
Biggest rule change I’d make is that Zotti is not allowed to moderate the pit. Sorry, Ed, but as a guy that has moderated elsewhere for over a decade now, as I see it, you just don’t have a thick enough skin to moderate the pit. For that matter, you really can’t moderate anywhere here. Your trigger finger is just too itchy, and once you’ve done something dumb…ie, anytime I’ve ever seen you act as a mod, you get called on it, then you get all grumpy and defensive, and somebody gets banned. Bodoni seems slightly better, but she’s really not suited for being a pit mod either.
From a poster’s point of view, the Pit isn’t broken, and doesn’t need fixing. Ed, you pretty much need to stay out of there…the recent problems have been mostly caused by poor decisions you’ve made. Ideally, you should apologize to Giraffe, and promise to stay out of the way if he will return.
I can testify that Ed does actually listen to reasonable appeals, and even sometimes changes his mind. There was a recent incident over a perception of “hate speech”, in which I calmly defended the warned poster by explaining to Ed, complete with citations, why the French are not considered an ethnic group. He listened, withdrew his warning, and even apologized to the warned user. You certainly can’t ask for more than that.
As to the OP, I think the Pit should be what Giraffe and Fluid had made it into — a funny, lighthearted archive of snark. I didn’t like it when Giraffe first moved in, but over time he won my admiration and support. The most important thing about moderation, in my opinion, is even handedness. And the Pit mods had that in spades. I think that once that is lost — once there’s the perception of a clique in charge with pets and favorites — it will really descend into a madhouse.
Maybe there’s something we haven’t been told. Maybe the Reader hates the Pit. I know that at one time I recommended it be done away with. But back then, Ed defended it rather vigorously. So I’m not even sure we can make constructive suggestions until we know what the boundaries are. There’s no point in suggesting, for example, that Ed repeal the no-backtalk-to-mods rule if he intends ot make backtalk to mods out of bounds.
I guess at this point, I just hope we can, as users, participate on an adult level. Rules designed for children will hamper that, I think.
Except the part about not liking **Giraffe **'s Pit-modding at first. I always have thought he did a smack-up job of modding the Pit. "But “maybe the Reader hates the Pit”?–I am starting to think that’s the crux of the problem.
****To be wholly fair to Ed, his trigger finger seems to itch only on behalf on his staff: he put up with a storm of criticism over the Barn House forum, a lot of which was petty and ill-deserved {I know, because I posted some of it} with good grace, and responded by sifting out the worthwhile suggestions and moving the forum. He’s obviously fiercely protective of his staff, though, and gets irked easily when they are subjected to abuse, and it’s then that the ban stick gets flourished.
I think that sticking up for one’s staff is a wholly admirable trait in a manager: I’d simply suggest that Ed needs to pick his staff for the rough stuff shrewdly, and then trust them to do their jobs without feeling the need to leap in and “protect” them. Giraffe and fluiddruid were absolutely suited to moderating the Pit because they had the right amiability with a touch of steel required for the job; Colibri, much as I respect him, was probably a little unseasoned for the Pit, and rather foolishly rose to Sapo’s baiting insead of turning it aside with a pithy retort, and as a result posted something rather silly and hotheaded that I’m sure he rues.
Where was I going with this Ah, yes. Ed, you’re a good bloke, you obviously have the best interests of the Board at heart, you’re willing to listen and respond to the posters here, and you’re fiercely protective of your staff, and good on ya for all of those qualities: just trust your staff and their abilities to do their jobs and be able to handle the slings and arrows, and try not to micro-manage with a hedge of inconsistently applied rules and protocols that will only rouse resentment. And ban more total wankers.
From the description of ATMB:
*
For all general questions and concerns about the SDMB. This is the place for suggestions, complaints, and other discussions regarding rules, administration, and moderator decisions.*
I could maybe see moving it to the pit because there is some criticism of certain mods…but IMHO? In this forum, posters can be warned for saying a mod wears ugly clothes…much less any comments about moderation style, etc.