SlackerInc expressed pride in his Northern European heritage. I challenged and criticized such ethnic pride (cut and paste from my post in the thread):
I think such pride can increase the likelihood of these horrific ends – ethnic pride, in fact, is one of the necessary ingredients for certain types of atrocities. You might be smart enough to not buy into such rhetoric, if it sprang up in your community… but what about all the others you celebrated and encouraged ethnic pride with? They might be more susceptible than you. Are you really not worried at all if your dumb-ass neighbor expresses ethnic pride? You don’t think that has any chance of increasing the likelihood that he does something terrible? Is there anything to balance the scales on the “good side” that requires ethnic pride? I can’t think of anything. It seems almost wholly negative, especially when it’s a majority and unoppressed group.
He wisely noted that this wasn’t the subject of the thread, and therefore I’ve started a new one.
After some thought, I came up with a possible positive for ethnic pride, but only for oppressed minority populations – ethnic pride might offer some sense of cohesion, community, protection, and optimism among populations with little chance to acquire these qualities otherwise. But I can’t think of any positives for non-opppressed majority groups, like Northern Europeans. And when the negatives – a much greater likelihood of ethnic pogroms, ethnic cleansing, genocide, race-based slavery, and the like – are taken into account, it seems clear to me that ethnic pride is an overwhelmingly negative characteristic to have and to encourage in others.
Are we also bringing in the point that SlackerInc’s pride isn’t actually ethnic? Because actual ethnic pride has a lot of possible positive aspects to it which are not found in racial pride.
Feel free to make such a point. I find that differences between “ethnic” and “racial” as descriptors are extremely fuzzy, and since he called it ethnic pride, I figured I would too.
Isn’t nearly everyone part of some minority or other?
Northern-European isn’t a single ethnicity. in the Netherlands alone there’s Flemish, Zeelanders, Brabantians, Drents, Frisians, Hollanders.
You’re not? Then I must have misunderstood your post. I got an impression that you thought pride could be okay among an oppressed minority i.e. victims, but not among groups who do not meet that description. If I have misinterpreted that, please clarify my mistake.
If that’s what you meant, then it’s not quite right – I’m saying that there might be a positive for such groups, but I’m not saying that this positive necessarily outweighs the incredible negatives. But I thought you meant pride in victimhood, which certainly isn’t what I meant at all.
TBH, I don’t really find any value in “group pride” where you haven’t actually contributed to the achievement of the group, except in the limited case where, if everyone is telling you you should be ashamed of belonging to a group, turning that around and taking pride in the group’s achievements can be a good antidote.
I’d apply that to all forms of group pride - national pride, ethnic pride, sports-team pride, anything - far better to take pride in something you actually did, even if it’s as little as “I wanted to stay in bed forever but I got up and faced the day”, than vicarious pride in something that’s impressive, but you had nothing to do with.
I can understand being interested in your heritage though. It’s all history, and history is inherently fascinating (IMNSHO). Though I wouldn’t want to limit myself to heritages I had a specific genetic connection to, but whatever floats your boat…
This thread isn’t about the political aspects of ethnic pride, but rather the moral aspects. I’m not sure I agree with you on the politics, but I’m not interested in discussing it in this thread.
As a pro, I think it can be a fun game to play. It’s romantic to sit and dream about your Bushmen ancestors stalking prey during the day or gathering around the potlatch during the evening. It should be kept at a superficial level, without a lot of investment from the head or the heart.
As a con, I’m reminded of The Pale Blue Dot.
There is little value in separating ourselves and much to be gained by a sense of unity.
One good aspect is that it can encourage good behavior and hard work. For example Jewish people are probably the most successful ethnic group in the world. One part of their culture is the sense of superiority, that they are the “chosen people.” Because of this there is a taboo against acting in a way that would dishonor the group in the eyes of the gentiles. This would be known as being a shonda fur die goyim. This internalized fear of shame prevents bad behavior and encourages good behavior.
In my opinion there is nothing wrong with feeling pride in a group’s contributions/accomplishments that lift up the whole community(or even mankind itself), especially if you play an active part in that group. If the group “pride” you subscribe to has something to do with being superior to other groups, past, present or future, then I am generally against it.