Question for you Paul: Does Saudi Arabi permit that abomination known as “Temporary Marriage” which is practiced in a certain part of the Islamic world?
Hard to say. Saudis (for historical reasons) build 3m walls around their homes (they are all fire traps, by the way). I always suspect the worst is going on behind those walls. Incest is quite common (according to my doctor).
I can believe that incest is quite common since, supposedly, there’s very little interaction between unrelated males and females there. Couple the fact that the only female forms a man sees are his relatives with the general cultural concept of a woman’s lesser worth and you’ll likely end up with some kind of bad treatment.
elendil76, you should start an “ask the gay porn actor/prostitute” thread. Not sure where that would go, I think they usually end up in Great Debates (this forum).
One would have to assume that legalizing prostitution would restrict this job to adults. Soliciting sex from a minor is illegal in Japan (although this is a recent law, from just a couple of years ago). For adults, there are plenty of people who have dead-end jobs which in time they “crumble and become hollow shells.” Why place restriction on this method when we don’t prohibit people from MacJobs?
so what’s wrong with being detestable, balding, alcohol-breathed, fat and middle aged? It happens to a lot of us.
We will always have prostitution. We’ll have guys who are willing to pay for sex and women who are willing to get money for it. I think we would be better off regulating it than keeping it illegal. I agree with Paul that prostitution is really ugly in places where women are treated as slaves. That’s why I wouldn’t visit one in such areas. However, I think that the same thing could also be said of the sweatshops and other industries with appalling work conditions.
Unfortunately, there is some trafficking of Southeast Asians into Japan. However, the Japanese working are doing so voluntarily. In the past, I’ve been to a few, but have a friend who was quite the expert. These young women were relatively normal girls who were far from hollow shells. Most of the girls in the industry would work for a short time and then go on with their lives. Is it what I would want my sisters to have done? No, but people make their own choices. And, an advantage of legalizing prostitution would be better regulation which could reduce the number of people doing this against their wills.
If we are going to prohibit prostitution for being dehumanizing, I think we should prohibit working at low-wage jobs for prolonged periods of time for being even more dehumanizing. Especially working at two such jobs because one won’t pay the bills.
(Please, please, let some sucker come along and tell me this is impractical or that there’s an important distinction between prostitution and a McJob.)
But at a McJob, you’re only selling your soul. You’re not selling your body for unnatural lusts.
Did I do good?
I am afraid your post lacked sincerity.
Is it just me or do most prostitution discussions invariably equate wives with prostitutes?
Marc
As stated, I agree that there is probably no major point in outlawing prostitution–so we’re getting beyond where I would personally care to fight the issue against.
But, it’s fun, so.
Just my contention. I would personally believe that the only way to drop the number of (street-walking level) illegal prostitutes would be to decrease the level of poverty and immigration. But no way to tell so, not much to debate there.
But their outlook on sex has to do with their non-puritanical history. Legal prostitution is a result of this rather than a cause. So even though their non-puritanical view is probably more healthy, that doesn’t equate to prostitution being good or pointful.
I’m just stating that from what I have viewed, a lot of girls get into it thinking that it won’t have any emotional involvement.
Or to say it a bit better, rather than comparing it to McDonalds would be becoming a police officer.
Young guys wanting to become police officers generally will have the vision of going out, catching bad guys, helping people, getting to shoot big ass guns, etc. Pretty much a good, upstanding job.
But the contents of the job are such that everything you are seeing every day is dark. Everyone you meet hates you and lies to you. Everywhere you go, someone is doing something bad. In total, it distorts the police officers outlook on the world to be much more cynical than is really in line with 90% of life.
But we do need police officers. Prostitutes aren’t needed in the world–their only purpose being to make it so you can, again, use a human as a sex toy.
As to the issue of the good pay, well certainly. And as in the case elendil76 where he’s a professional and probably seeks to improve himself and perfect his techniques and such, all the power to him. But he’s doing it because it’s a profession that personally interests him.
If you said you wanted to legalise geishas–someone who had to have training in music, dance, massage, sexual technique and such, I would be all behind it. With that I would believe that most people going into it went into it out of a personal desire to do such, to pleasure people and be pleasured.
But as you will note, even though it is illegal elendil76 has been able to already live up to his desire. It’s something he wanted and he made it happen. It wasn’t just a “lie down on your back and think of the money” type proposition.
I wouldn’t say that it is seen as being particularly shameful in Japan. As said before, the issue I see is that dumb-ass middle class girls–the kind who get the silly tattoos being discussed on the board right now–go into it thinking, “Heck I lay on my back, maybe make some noises, and I can get that purse I wanted!” The problem is, is that in doing that she’s equating the worth of her body to a purse.
I mean, smiling on cue is just a lie; no one much cares. But regardless that sex is simply a natural function–regardless of the country most people view it as being something intimate and personal. So even though we’re just talking some friction, for your average girl, with enough repetition, I do see this as causing these girls to come to the idea that Purse=Body=Me.
And again, the people making them become objects are men.
Or do you get much manga porn (by and for women) in the US with a common theme of women cutting off mens’ dicks after they’re done? I mean, certainly Japan has more and further issues than prostitution leading to this–but by no means is prostitution legal in order to even the sexes or promote a healthy sexual outlook. Nor is that the reason it is legal in Europe. It’s legal because people wanted to use other people for their own desires.
Of course there are millions of cases of people using people in the world so there’s no particular reason to outlaw this one instance, but for exactly that reason what purpose in re-establishing it?
There’s an important distintion between prostitution and a McJob: A McJob pays dick* and stupid middle-class girls don’t go out of their way to get one. There is no up-side like good-pay or sexual pleasure to mess with your mind.
Because it happens to a lot of us, there’s a greater chance of the girls coming to view this as the only and to be expected eventual fate of men. Why demand more of your husband if all men are naturally fat sweaty pigs who just like to pay 18yos to sleep with them before going back to their wife for food.
Well here, I had a girlfriend in high school who, within my first conversation with her ever “God’s fuck, this girls probably been fucked by every 40 year old slob her mother brought home since she was 8.” flashed through my brain. Not another person thought so, but she was afraid when she realised that I knew.
My friend knew her in high school and similarly thought nothing, then years later after he had worked in social services for many years met her again. After this he tels me “You remember XXXXX?” “Yep.” “Dude, she’s been fucked over so bad, since she was a little girl.” “Yep, I knew.” (hang our heads in silence)
So, you against me. I trust my opinion of their mental state more. But doesn’t mean I’m right–and I certainly hope I’m not.
If sex is just friction–just a smile at McD’s, why not?
- Ironic…
I’m happy for you, elendil, but I think you must acknowledge that for most prostitutes in the world, gay or straight, male or female, working conditions are very, very different from what you have experienced. Most prostitutes are obliged to service anyone who offers to pay; many must serve a dozen or even two dozen clients a day; many are effectively slaves to their pimps/madams; many make very little money from their work, or none at all; and many live in constant danger of being harmed by clients or pimps, or of contracting disease from a client. On top of all that, some prostitutes are minors – some are even children under 12 (although whether such exploited children can even be labelled “prostitutes” is debatable). Whether changing the law would change any of that is subject to debate.
I’d bet that your unfortunate friend had some serious issues. I hope that she received help for that. No one here is avocating sexual abuse of children. I’m discussing legalization of prostitution of adults. You can’t equate a adult who wishes to earn money this way and a child who have been fucked since she was 8.
No no, I’m just showing an example of my (self-perceived) ability to tell when people have issues and what caused that. You said that you don’t see the women here as being particularly affected by their tenure as prostitutes–while as I don’t feel that to be true.
There’s no way to tell who is right, and I do hope you’re the one who is. I fear, though, that you are not.
Actually, the correct response to your original claim:
should be: cite?
Unless this is empirical study which you have done. How many adult prositutes have you talked to? OK, I’ll bite. How many high school prositutes have you talked to? 1? 10? 100? 1,000? They are all like this?
I am looking for concrete cites (though finding social documentation on Japan is very difficult. The best place I know of is www.childresearch.net but that is targetted towards children, and I can’t read PDFs at work (Linux Acrobat can’t display Japanese.))
I have no idea how many prostitutes or former prostitutes I have conversed with (of course), beyond saying “no” to the Filipino girls on my way home. And the general absence of…anything of middle-aged Japanese women is probably due to a wider range of factors.
Currently I am basing my belief principally on interviews with (British) suicidal girls that I read in college. It was a fairly common theme for the girls to sleep around a lot as a way to re-inforce for themselves their own worthlessness.
I’ve read some interviews with girls who were doing enjo-kosai and the tone was fully non-chalant. “Would you recommend it?” “Of course, I told my little sister that it’s a good way for money.” Which mostly bothers me as (as I recall it) little sister was 12. If a 20yo recommends it to a 17yo is one thing, but when a high school girl is telling her 12yo little sister to prostitute herself I’m less prone to believe it isn’t a form of revenge. However, that just depends on what you read into such a comment.
Ideally I would be able to find some sort of studies on suicide rate/divorce rate per former and never prostitutes. But I’ve probably got a snowflakes chance in hell for that.
Actually, early 20th century urban progressives and women’s groups were among the forefront of those decrying the profession as exploitative and degrading to women.
If your beliefs are based on studies of how suicidal girls view sex, then wouldn’t that suggest that there may not be the causal relationship which you are claiming? If fact, it would seem that these girls are people who are sleeping around for free (obviously I haven’t seen your source materal, please correct me if this assumption is in error), then that would not seem to be relevent to a discussion of legalizing prostitition.
I could speculate on the possible motives as well, but I don’t know if revenge against middle aged men would be the primary motive.
And if you find a study comparing the rate of hollow shells among the two groups. then we’re in business. 
Alright, I just did some googling and it looks like my best bet for information on the topic I was looking for is Backstreets: Prostitution, Money and Love, written by a couple of Norwegians (where prostitution is legal) and based principally on interviews with current or former workers.
From the reviews, I already know it is negative, but how representative their sample of interviewees was of the actual population, whether they went into the study with the preconceived notions, etc. I have no idea.
It’s going to cost me upward of $50 to order it by a reasonable shipping speed, and I’m going to move within the month so I can’t do the super-slow one.
If anyone wants to check it out before then and post the results, I would be much obliged. Otherwise I’m going to wait until after I move (so it will be about a month and a half for me to receive from now.)
[QUOTE=TokyoPlayer]
If your beliefs are based on studies of how suicidal girls view sex, then wouldn’t that suggest that there may not be the causal relationship which you are claiming?
And why should suicidal girls view sex any differently? They grew up in the same society as their friends, had the same sex-ed classes, etc.
Yes, they were sleeping about for free. But the question is why, and the one they gave was that it was a way to debase themselves.
Revenge against her sister, not middle aged men.
Replace “hollow shell” with “Post traumatic stress disorder” and we are in business. This page states that:
But probably the book in my previous post is better as it studies a country where prostitution is legal.
Because I agree with this, I just get more and more depressed. [Why haven’t they created a smiley for “depressed”?]
In some countries, I believe, prostitution is legal. They just do regular health checks, etc. It brings in a lot of money.