Even if all thing are true (having sex for money is inherently debasing, women’s minds just cannot handle having sex for money, women only choose prostitution when they are severly fucked up, etc.) and not just commentaries on how we view women who choose to have sex…
well, so what? Prostitutes arn’t the only people who choose career paths for somewhat self-destructive reasons. One of my geeky intellectual friends spent a stint as a day-laborer with the homeless and the drug addicts to prove some kind of strange point to himself. I’ve known more than one near-suicidal person join the military in the thought process that if life sucks, at least you can do something with your death. And I think we all know a few vets that left with their heads a little less than fully intact.
Short of hitman and drug dealer, we generally don’t protect people from what occupation they choose for themselves. We regulate things to make them physically safe, but we usually don’t go out of our way to protect the dignity and mental health of workers. I’m not sure why prostitution of all things is so much different than any other occupation in the world. And I still strongly suspect that it comes from a desire to control women’s sexuality.
Well, firstly, even in countries where prostitution is legal, most women do not choose prostitution and neither do they do so simply because they are “fucked up” and deserve it.* And, as stated, I personally have no issue with legal prostitution, I just highly disrespect anyone who would patronize them instead of finding someone else who wanted to have sex.
Yeah, but social workers, soldiers, policemen, doctors, and ambulance drivers serve vital functions in society to make it a better place. There is no need in life to have women that you can buy.
Unless you have found some documentation proving the validity of blue ball?
Sexual harasment in the workplace? Slavery? Building codes which mandate a minimum level of light, fresh air, and paintings in the lobby? Prostitution (it is illegal you know…)? Anti-discrimination laws? 1st amendment (cannot be looked down upon for personal beliefs)? 4th amendment (right to privacy (dignity))? 5/6th amendment (a person cannot be treated harmfully unless proven to be guilty of wrongdoing)? The United Nations declaration of human rights “to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small”?
I fail to see a point when, needed or not, the government has not stepped in and ended any common practice felt to be inherently demeaning. Continued legalised slavery up until modern day would have resulted in:
- A free-market welfare system by which the black population would be given profession based simply on the color of his skin, kept housed, nourished, and kept among others of his education level and social beliefs to befriend.
- Potentially a lower crime rate than in modern day.
- Continued income to the nations of Africa to supply us with a steady influx of workers.
But, it was outlawed because treating a human as a possession denies them of their dignity and can be emotionally harmful. That they were not there of their own will was an issue that only came up later, so far as I am aware.
But anyhow, the anti-prostitution people would respond as follows:
But anyways, I would just like to point out that as of yet, the only evidence to be brought to fore for prostitution is that McDonalds is a sucky job 
and “Yeah, but I’m paying”?
- Germany and Austria appear to be about 60% illegal immigrants. Largely brought in by mafia.
I think that would be of more interest. One of the problems with criminalizing prositution is that this promotes explotation by the pimps and johns.
From your cite:
When a prositute is beaten up or raped now, there isn’t anything which she (or he) can do about it now. They are breaking the law, so they can’t ask for help.
The system now in America seems to be blatenly unfair and bias against the prostitutes. There was a case of an LDS leader who was caught in the act: (Cases like this happen quite frequently, I would imagine, so this is one case where I’m not really picking on the LDS church. It’s just the one case I remembered off hand.)
The link goes on the show how the john, a prominent attorney in the firm which does most of the legal work for the church eventually gets a slap on the wrist and his record goes away after a year. Any bets the woman didn’t get the same treatment?
I wonder if it’s not similar to alcohol and the prohibition. With the criminalization of alcohol, then it drove the business into the domain of the bad guys. I would be interested to read more about how legalization changes things.
Unlike Paul, I’m not the expert, but have heard the experences of friends and coworders who visit the legal “health” clubs, which allow oral sex and hand jobs but prohibit penetration. (Not that penetration never happens.) These women are not being beaten up or raped and are free to quit.
I would vote that the willingness to treat a human as an object promotes exploitation. So regardless of law, it will always end up where the mafia or such ends up in majority control. Similarly as that communism in no way requires a despotic government, and yet it has always come to pass that way.
True, though countries in which it is legal, still most prostitutes are working illegally. But that is mostly an issue of the fall of the USSR. Which supports my earlier theory, before researching anything. “I would personally believe that the only way to drop the number of (street-walking level) illegal prostitutes would be to decrease the level of poverty and immigration.”
Yes, most of the sites I saw (it appears that New Zealand was studying the methods of various countries) advised the “Sweden method” where the penalty falls entirely on the john.
Paul?
How do you know they aren’t being raped and are free to quite?
There was a yakiniku place I used to go to. I always sat at the same table and periodically the table next to me would feature some large, burly Japanese fellows–most probably Yakuza. One snippet of conversation I overheard was one relating a story to one of his comrades, “そして、おれは「このアマ！殺してやる！！」って!ワハハー”(And I went, “You bitch, I’ll kill you!! Hahahah)”
Not to say that they aren’t there of their own free will, but I think you’re going to have a hard time finding a cite for any (let alone honest) sociological surveys of the sex industry in Japan. And who is to say that these girls weren’t already accustomed to such at home so that it isn’t just same-old-same-old? In such a case, yeah the current acts might not be causing them any further harm except reinforcement…w00t.
Andrew Vachss made a good point in one of his books along the lines of, “So how many bright young kids do you know of who just naturally think to themselves, ‘Well I need some money, so lets go out and sell sex!’–probably none. Most will think, ‘Well, maybe I can work at Kinkos or at the supermarket.’ Don’t you have to wonder if these kids weren’t already taught at home that sexual favors is a way to get gifts?” And in other countries, indeed, most people who do turn to the sex industry for money were sexually abused as children.
I wonder whether keeping prostitution illegal makes things worse. A prostitute has very little recourse when she’s robbed, raped, assaulted, or taken advantage of by her pimp. Is she likely to report when a crime has been committed against her? Probably not, because she herself was involved in an illegal activity and certainly doesn’t want to risk imprisonment. Keep in mind I’m not saying that legalizing prostitution is going to make everything smell like roses. I just think it might help improve their situation.
Marc
Alright just wanted to make sure the “But legal prostitution is a sign of enlightenment and liberating to women!” was gone.
Indeed, it might be more feasible to handle the issue of prostitution to manage it rather than illegalise it, similarly as one might do marijuana. It’s just a question of whether taking the feasible course is the moral course. Personally I have no great opinion.
I would like to see some sort of “prostitution academy” set up where you could get a two year degree for learning massage, sexual techniques, makeup and fashion, music, psychology, and such. I would agree with elendil76 that there are people who truly enjoy the idea of sex as a profession–and as such I would have no issue with either party in the transaction. Such a thing would probably be the best way to actually fight the stigma of prostitution, while guaranteeing that the people in it are there of their own choice and will receive what they were expecting. (Wouldn’t be my cup of tea, admittedly. But I see no reason to rob anyone of such a career.)
But I really don’t see legalised prostitution as aiding the women (or men) already in it or most to come. I do think that the only option there is to cut away from poverty. But even then, immigration will get you–particularly if you live next to the former USSR.
If one did want to actually have some amount of benevolent results from inserting the government into managing prostitution, I don’t think you’re going to accomplish much unless you’re doing things which promote good treatment by pimps of their string much more than say, registering brothels and such. For instance, allowing pimps to hire illegal immigrants, to register with the government and pay some minimal fee, and for that not get hastled so long as their prostitutes don’t show up in any hospitals, drug-rehab centers, or otherwise reported as being harmed.
For as “organized” of crime as the mafia may be–so far as I am aware it is still largely a pyramid of individual operators. The same with large gangs. Pimps just don’t have the money or (probably) brains to start a real brothel, and no one is going to give it to them. But they do have an endless supply of runaways, illegal immigrants, and drug-addicts and know how to make money off of them. That won’t change. So the amount of money the government is going to have to take is going to have to be fairly small (less than a second rate pimp cares about) and you’re probably going to need a lot of social workers to watch the streets and verify that the girls aren’t showing up bruised or bleeding.
I don’t see anything less as being particularly pointful.
Uhh…except for white slavery situations, all prostituted “want” to have sex- at least as much as I want to spend today filing papers and answering phones. There are plenty of men out there who, for various reasons such as health, emotional situation, age, occupation, etc. don’t have access to regular boy-meets-girl sex. I’m not sure why they should miss this important part of human experience because of your ideas of what goes on in the heads of prostitutes.
Slaughterhouse worker and convience store clerk are a couple of the most dangerous jobs out there- and we certainly don’t need meat and chips. Don’t think that public service jobs are the only risky ones. In any case, we don’t need most of the jobs out there, but the economy needs jobs in order to function and we enjoy buying all manner of goods and services. I don’t think we’ve ever regulated a whole job catagory away because we don’t need it. Why should prostitution be different?
How is sex undignified and harmful? Women are perfectly capable of choosing to have sex with any number and choice of men they want without surrendering their dignity. We have this persistant cultural idea that women are automatically debased by sex, but this is not true. Women, like men, have sex drives and are capable of wanting and seeking out sex without it being a sign of damage. I think it is insulting that you would even say that my dignity can be harmed by the mere statistics of who I sleep with.
In any case, whoever is concerned about human dignity better take a look at those silly hats they make the workers wear at Hotdog on a Stick. At lease prostitutes can use their money to buy health care, houses, education for their children…those poor folks at Hotdog on a Stick are being debased and don’t even have the dignity of making a living to show for it.
But slaved DID NOT HAVE A CHOICE. Nobody is arguing that white slavery is a good idea. Nobody is arguing that forced prostitution, child prostitution and indentured servitude are good ideas. People are free to go out and do farm work and domestic service work- the very same things that slaves did. It’s not the quality of the work that offended them. It’s the rest of the situation. Of course we should do all we can to stop human trafficking. Of course we should do all that we can to make sure that prostitution is safe and that prostitutes can keep the rewards for their labor. We should be doing this anyway, legal or not.
And the only evidence we have against it is “I, a guy who has passed prostitutes on the street occasionally, know enough about their lives to know that their occupation is not a valid choice and instead the government ought to make that choice for them.”
So you think that if I took a survey of people in your job, I would be likely to find that 75% of everyone had attempted suicide?
Yes and there are in the world sex clubs where people who want no-ties sex can go and meet each other. Really, if you buy a poodle you can have all the warm loving you want, the poodle will most likely enjoy it, and you’ll experience more genuine affection than you’re going to get out of 99.5% of most prostitutes.
And if there is nothing so magical or psychological about the physical act of sex, then why should it matter if you have sex with a human or your hand?
Yeah, except my ideas come from research into criminology and sociology and are based on statistics.
And they also don’t end up suffering post-traumatic stress disorder. Dangerous is different from dehumanizing.
Because beyond not needing it, abuse is illegal and most research points to prostitution largely resulting in the same effects as abuse.
Calling people useless filth and urinating on them shouldn’t harm people any more than sex should. “Sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me!” But that still doesn’t mean that in 80% of all cases the person being urinated on daily won’t have a mental breakdown.
Shouldn’t be true doesn’t mean isn’t true.
Between not insulting you and pointing out what has been found in multiple studies to a 1000 doper lurkers–I’m only concerned with the latter.
Find a cite for how many people who worked at Hotdog on a Stick and their children and how many end up living to a ripe old age, and one for prostitutes and their children, then. Otherwise, that’s got to be the silliest thing I’ve ever read.
Yes, but that’s not why slavery was outlawed.
I was giving an example which disproved your theory that the government doesn’t involve itself in illegalising demeaning labor. I was not relating prosititution to slavery.
I have given a good bit more evidence since then. And though I may never have specifically studied prostitution before this, that still doesn’t mean I was speaking out of my ass.
Now look, I don’t care about saving your emotions. If you bring some cites to the table, I’ll give them a thunk–but otherwise you’re going to have to deal with this yourself.
Kindly note that I am speaking only of the instance of prostitution here.
I don’t think that sex is debasing nor does anything I know indicate it to be–not for women or anyone else.
I always find it interesting how many people say (as I’ve seen posted in this very thread) “There’s nothing wrong with prostitution, but I wouldn’t want my daughter/sister/mother/girlfriend to do it.”
If there’s nothing wrong with it, why object to women you love doing it?
Apropos of nothing, here’s a bit of doggerel I wrote for the CS “Twisted nursery rhymes” thread – http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=314160:
Higglety, pigglety, my black hen
She lays down with gentlemen
Gentry pay me every day
Down with my black bitch to lay
Sometimes nine, and sometimes ten
Higgling, piggling, my black hen!
A history of morality laws. For example: blasphemy being illegal in Vermont, the states that outlaw unnecessary work on the (Christian) sabbath, states (including Washington) that ban hard alcohol sales on Sunday, etc.
If you can cite evidence for high rates of post-traumatic stress, physical and sexual assault, etc. you’ll go a long way toward establishing the truth of what you assert here.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with any of a number of types of simple grunt labor, but I’d want people close to me to do better (economically and socially) than that.
I’d rather my son be a male prostitute than a teacher. He’d have better hours, more money, and more respect in the community.
Well, since I seem to be the one person on the thread that said I wouldn’t want my sisters to do it, I presume this was addressed to me.
Don’t place words in my mouth. Show me where I claimed that there was nothing wrong with it. Or show that you are addressing someone else.
This are my comments:
I talk about various problems:
I actually don’t think prostitution has much to recommend it. Nor do I think smoking crystal meth is a great idea.
My main beef with proscription is it just makes the problems worse, and creates a lot of criminals out of victims, whilst driving the pushers into organized crime and tax-free enrichment. It’s crazy. Supply-side enforcement in the form of prohibition was stupid in the 30’s and it’s stupid now. Demand-side prevention can be successful, as we’ve seen with education about the dangers of cigarettes in the US. No matter what, there will be individuals who engage in, and get hurt by such outlawed activities. Filling up our jails with these people hasn’t done a damn thing to stop it, and has cost a bundle besides. As insanity could be defined as “doing the same thing over and over despite a chronic negative outcome”, I say we embrace sanity for a change, try something different, and see if conditions don’t improve.
I would expect studies to find some kind of problems with prostitutes’ mental health. But that in and of itself wouldn’t mean much, because even nations which have legalized prostitution still have some kind of societal bias against it in most cases. To get a true comparison, you’d have to find a place where prostitution was considered to be a neutral to good profession. As far as I know, there are no current societies which have sacred prostitutes or fertility priestesses, so I doubt you’d be able to find a true apples-to-apples comparison.
The closest thing you are likely to find is with jobs that are distasteful, involve confrontation, or have high-stress environments like law enforcement, especially prison administration; health care; or mental hospital workers. Even these jobs wouldn’t really be close because, while they are emotionally challenging and stressful, they are usually more highly regarded than prostitution. Even if the woman loved having sex with many different men, liked earning money that way, and thought it was a fulfilling and challenging environment, she would face a strong disconnect between her ideas and society’s. That disconnect alone would cause at least some kind of mental trauma on a daily basis. Eventually, the most optimistic person could be worn down by society’s expectation of her self-worth and her profession.
Making prostitution legal would only be a starting point for improving the lot of prostitutes. Things like improved health, both mental and physical, as well as protection from the worst abuse and violence would be immediate, but social change would be much, much slower.
Regarding prostitution in Japan, a great deal of it seems to be private, non-organized, and entered into freely. Establishments or storefronts are almost all either Yakuza-run or pay some kind of protection money, but the odd thing about Yakuza is that they actually do something in return for protection money. In the Kobe earthquake, businesses and families under the protection of the Yakuza were actually given help by the gangs well before the government got its act together. I’m not going to say things in a Yakuza brothel are sweetness and light, but you’d better believe that no guy is going to knock around one of the girls in a soap-land without having a serious “talk” with a hardcase.
The professionals are far outnumbered by amateurs. There are advertisements in tons of magazines and there are even web sites for women who want to sell sex. These women are unlikely to be affiliated with any pimp or stable; they do it by themselves for themselves. Some housewives started driving taxis so they could earn money by offering “extras” to their fares. Once a few started doing it, there were lots of imitators, many of whom had never done anything like it before. It was just a way to earn some extra cash.
The enjo kôsai (compensated dating) boom is dying down now, but most of the girls doing this went into it of their own accord. They saw it as a quick and easy way of getting things that they wanted. Modern technology made it pretty easy to meet guys and normal Japanese social behaviors made it fairly easy to meet the men in a safe place for pre-screening prior to closing the deal. With the recent crackdown on web sites and phone clubs that catered to the schoolgirl prostitutes, those safeguards are no longer in place. I expect to hear a lot more stories about girls getting raped, killed, and beaten up because of these law enforcement measures.
It’s not all females who are involved in prostitution here either. Recently, I heard that there are more and more high school boys getting into the business to service lonely housewives. Host clubs, the counterpart of the infamous hostess clubs, have undergone a boom, though that seems to have leveled off lately.
even sven:
Would you, personally, consider engaging in prostitution?
Why, or why not?