As said before, I would personally believe that even though there is nothing which necessitates for prostitution to be viewed negatively, it has consistently become that way. And the reason is because the profession requires people to put themselves in an inferior position, and then the people who come are looking for that as a sales-point.
Even with dom-play, the guy with the money is still the dom when he’s getting whipped. Would she want to whip a person normally? How does it make her feel to be forced (by money) to whip another person as a sexual device?
This has been discussed. These professions are necessary. Blue ball does not exist.
Porn stars, that I am aware, are perfectly fine and do not suffer post traumatic stress disorder.
That I have read and understand, the issue isn’t society giving bad looks, but rather the knowledge that you are being used as an object. So, unless you know a way to change all the clients from guys who don’t giv e a damn, to guys who are want to make sure that the girls feel like humans–I don’t see that changing the laws has anything to do with anything.
This has been discussed.
Indeed, most of the girls are probably treated fairly well here. I was simply pointing out that there is no way of knowing in Japan. The government does not want official scientific studies to exist on the social state of the nation. But it is definitely not a country where men and women are equal.
This has uch more to do with patriotism than niceness–and Japanese patriotism pretty much only has anything to do with machismo.
And? This doesn’t mean the girls end up well–that they don’t end up as pachinko moms.
Sex and rape are two separate things. Rapists are not getting off on the sex–so keeping prostitutes about effects very little. Prostitutes are raped as well.
In 2/3rds of all cases of rape, the victim knows the offender. 1/3rd of all rapes are of a person under the age of 12 (who we will assume cannot be a voluntary prostitute.) One can assume these breakdowns are fairly consistent by country. So this leaves 1/6th of all women raped to have been raped because the law won’t allow them to become prostitutes. Of course if they had become prostitutes, they would have a 62% chance of being raped (over a guesstimate period of a few years.)
Oops, thought Phillips was a writer for the Sweden document. Anyways, here’s a document from Sweden and some of the highlights:
Between 1999 when Sweden illegalised prostitution and 2002, the number of prostitutes declined 50%, with the recruitment of new women and the importation of illegal immigrants for prostitution coming to a halt. Prostitution didn’t move to the internet.
Almost all men who used a prostitute had and were accustomed to many sexual partners in their daily life, and are not ugly, unpopular men with no other outlet.
Denmark has roughly 6,250 street prostitutes out of a population of 4.5 million people. Sweden has roughly 9 million people, with 500 street prostitutes. (The number of prostitutes includes illegal imigrants.)
The number of men patronizing prostitutes declined 75-80%.
There has been no notable increase of Swedish men going abroad for sex.
The prostitutes of Norway, Finland, and Denmark are roughly 50% illegl immigrants, largely trafficked into the country. These women have no legal recourse if mistreated.
Since the 1999 illegalisation, traffickers have stopped because:
The women can’t work the streets, so must be escorted to the buyers (which requires time and men.)
The men who come are afraid of prosecution and must be assured of absolute silence before they will enter the transaction.
Due to #2, the pimps have needed to do better at not being caught and have started switching locations and keeping apartment brothels–both of which cost much more than a set-location with street workers.
It’s less of a hastle to run illegally in coutnries where prostitution is legal, or where only the prostitute is charged.
The document does not state whether the situation of the remaining prostitutes improved. Those who left the industry by-and-large reported that they were thankful that the job was no longer a viable option, some turning in their johns themselves.
43% of the Parliament in Sweden was female when the law was passed.
Because the industrial first world (i.e.: Europe and the US) imposes their values on the world. Until Japan faced stern disapproval from the West, they had few laws regarding prostitution and age of consent. The current crackdown on schoolgirl prostitutes is mostly a PR measure, and it’s not really motivated by internal politics, but by wanting to increase Japan’s standing versus the West, especially in relation to the US.
It does not require the person to put themselves in an inferior position any more than trying to sell any other commodity puts the seller in an inferior position. That is your interpretation of the power dynamics. I think the circumstances surrounding prostitution in most countries creates a situation where it is very hard to have control.
You’re reaching here. If she doesn’t want to whip someone for money, she can find something else to do. There are definitely dommes who like whipping guys. Some women positively relish it. In an interview of a Madam I saw, she said that she often has to turn girls away because they don’t have the right instincts for it, but that she has no shortage of girls wanting to try.
That the positions I mentioned are necessary is not a real argument for or against prostitution. There are many stressful and unpleasant jobs that are not strictly necessary but provide some service that someone finds valuable. Few people agitate for sales positions or telemarketing to be outlawed, even though those jobs are not necessary and are definitely more stressful than even McJobs in some ways. I worked in sales for a while, so I know from experience that I’d rather be doing something else. I ended up getting a job loading trucks in crappy weather in preference to continuing with sales.
And yes, blue balls do exist. Not that it really matters for this discussion.
I don’t think anyone has actually come up with a citation for the PTSD yet. On the other hand, I would expect more problems with prostitution than porn stars, in the same way I would expect a doctor who does emergency room work once a month and runs his own general practice the rest of the time to be less stressed than someone who works the ER full time.
Customers are shitty. That’s something that won’t change no matter what the profession or its legal status. Society is responsible for how shitty the customers are and how much they can get away with toward prostitutes before facing repercussion. Some of the men who abuse prostitutes undoubtedly do so because they feel that social disapproval gives them license to do so.
You can see the same social dynamic at work toward women who have sex with lots of men for free. They’re called sluts, tramps, whores, cunts, etc. In many cases, these epithets are applied by women because they are seen as a threat to the social order. Women with husbands and boyfriends want to protect their relationship from the “damage” these women can potentially cause.
This is a social attitude that would only change if more people had friends and family who were doing this for a living. For the record, my little sister worked as an escort for a couple of years and I had a girlfriend who did private strip shows to support herself. I had to face some of my negative attitudes toward sex work because of their involvement in it.
Gee, I’m sorry that I had one sentence reiterating a point made above.
I have no argument with your first part; the Japanese government doesn’t like to ask awkward questions. I have a strong suspicion that the official figures for most negative benchmarks, like the prevalence of HIV infection, are completely false, which is disgustingly dangerous.
The second part of your statement has no meaning. Men and women are not equal in any culture on the globe. Indeed, that is one of the bones of contention in Western countries, particularly in the US. Yet, Japan seems to treat its sex workers better than the more “enlightened” US. There is no way of knowing for sure, given the absence of official statistics and reliable information, but there are indirect indicators to that effect.
Crap. Japanese society puts great value on reciprocity and responsibility toward in-group members. The Yakuza are not patriots, they have their own internal code of honor that has nothing to do with nationality. The “machismo” you seem to see is an artifact of your perceptions about Japanese society that has very little to do with reality. The situation is nowhere near as simple as you seem to want it to be.
And this means that there are a lot of women who willingly and of their own accord engage in sex work. Most of the schoolgirl prostitutes, for instance, are of a middle class upbringing. They aren’t sex slaves. They aren’t doing it because they really need the money. They are doing it because they want to.
Japanese society doesn’t look down on it as much as the US, and guess what, a lot of girls don’t think it’s that bad of a thing to do. Social disapproval is lower, and they seem to have a correspondingly low rate of problems. A teenage prostitute in the US probably wouldn’t graduate from high school and would probably have lots of psychological problems. Some of the girls who do enjo kôsai get better grades and seem to be just as well adjusted as other girls in their classes. Social attitudes make a huge difference.
I’m not going to argue your statistics or ask you for a citation because this has nothing to do with what I was addressing in my post. In shutting down the telephone clubs and internet boards that catered to this market, they are taking away some of the tools the girls had for vetting johns. Undoubtedly, this deterred some of them from starting, but the girls who continue to do it have fewer ways of protecting themselves from predators of opportunity.
I doubt you would deny that rapists and murderers will take advantage of an opportunity when they see it. Prostitutes and other sex workers in the US are victimized at much higher rates than women who do not do that kind of work because they are forced into positions with fewer safeguards, they have less access to legal protection, and they are looked down on by society. Japan has taken a step in the direction of the US, and I expect them to have more US-style problems because of it.
I’m moving tomorrow to a new apartment, so I won’t be able to respond until I get my connection setup (or have a sufficient amount of free time at work.)
Sage Rat, I would like apologize for posting “crap” in my last post. That was uncalled for and, worse, hypocritical. I’ve chastised people on posting similar things in GD or GQ which means I should know better than to do the same.
Alright, here’s my take. Prostitution should be legal because women should be allowed to use their body for sex. I mean, I wouldn’t advise doing it but if they’re adults they should be allowed to do it. Making prostitution illegal is the real crime because those women need the money and it’s hard as hell finding a job espeacially with prostitues because I would imagine they’re not well educated but I don’t have a cite for that. Even, if they are educated they could still desperately need a job. Finding a job is hard and if you can use your body to earn money, why not?
No, but prostituion is much different. Indentured servitude is almost like slavery if a woman can get a fair pimp or set her own prices it shouldn’t be that bad. I mean there are better ways to live but if a makes the woman happy and she is getting money, what’s the problem exactly?
From here:
Among victims aged 18 to 29, two-thirds had a prior relationship with the offender. During 2000, about six in ten rape or sexual assault victims stated the offender was an intimate, other relative, a friend or an acquaintance.
According to a report based on FBI data, almost 70% of sexual assault reported to law enforcement occurred in the residence of the victim, the offender, or another individual.
Sixty-seven percent of all victims of sexual assault reported to law enforcement agencies were juveniles (under the age of 18); 34% of all victims were under age 12.
Reviewing it, it appears my math was indeed incorrect.
One-third of our sample is discounted as being too young (under twelve): 2/3
Two thirds of the remaining amount is discounted as they will be raped by a relative or ex-boyfriend or such (leaving one-third): 2/3 * 1/3 = 2/9 = 1/4.5
So a little under a quarter rather than a sixth. That assuming that more prostitution = less rape, which idea is discounted by the Word Document I linked to earlier. Though I haven’t looked into that any further.
Internet! Yay! (The thread made it all the way to page four. :eek: )
Though you are now banned: Indentured servants had an official contract stating exactly how much and when they would get paid, and what services they were to perform in the meantime. There is legally nor logically any reason for indentured servitude to result in near-slave conditions–and yet it has become so in every instance throughout the world until it had to be banned.
As of yet, the only proposed instance which maybe shows that prostitution doesn’t have to (usually) end up negatively for the woman is fertility maidens–but I have seen no cite to support this.
Cite? It could just as easily be argued that once prositution began to be outlawed, most nations just did a “Yeah, we know it’s not cool” and illegalised it without needing to be pressed…except the one nation which kept took sex slaves for its military from its neighboring nations 60 years ago and still refuses to face up to it properly and of course still hasn’t illegalised it.
Except in no other profession is a human the commodity.
It’s the interpretation of the majority of prostitutes–or prove that wrong.
Well then show that it is better in countries where it is legal.
Perhaps. To some extent, indeed, doms may be more healthy than straight-sex workers. But if that is so, I would imagine that it would be because it draws a particular kind of person.
But I meant it more as an example of how what appearances are doesn’t have to be what is really going on in anyones head. Most of the girls doing this may enjoy the work, but just as much that having sex with your wife is different in terms of equality as with having sex with a prostitute, while Dom/Sub couples at home probably truly are the Dom and Sub, once one party is paying the Dom is no longer the Dom. Whether that turns out for the best or worse just depends on whether the girl feels like she is being used.
I wouldn’t necessarily say that this bit aids your argument. I would find it more likely that the surplus of girls would be ones who wanted to be able to switch positions–and for those I would imagine that they would find that their position had not changed or at least not for the better. The Madam most probably stopped them as a safety net (e.g. to protect the clients or the girl’s emotional state) more than a “doesn’t have the proper dramatic flair” type thing.
Yes, but 75% of telemarketers aren’t trying to commit suicide, 92% of them don’t want out of their job immediately, and there is no particular argument to be made that the job is inherently sexist or demeaning.
Here, a good example is this thread. You see a lot of people saying “With a list like that, you can diagnose anyone!” But it’s not just a matter of “anything like this ever” but of always and in extreme measures. So yeah, there are sucky jobs in the world–but no, prostitution doesn’t equate when you run the numbers.
I don’t see the place where Cecil says a woman is required. Or shall we only legalise prostitution for men with no arms?
But how does legalising prostitution change that? Can you give evidence that the life of prostitutes is better in countries where it is legal?
As said, the reason I would believe from reading interviews with women (albeit suicidal ones–though I’m going to order that one book now) is an issue of the women feeling that sex, as an emotional involvement and as an intimate and intrinsic part of their body, when done specifically with anyone or just for money has the effect of “valuing” their body and by extension themselves.
The only solution to that is to get women (and I would assume men as well) to not hold any emotional attachment to sex or relating that to their body and their self. But I don’t know that I would want to live in such a world.
No, no, I was just pointing out that I had discussed that previously and didn7t want to copy and paste down. But, to quote:
[quote]
The second part of your statement has no meaning. Men and women are not equal in any culture on the globe. Indeed, that is one of the bones of contention in Western countries, particularly in the US. Yet, Japan seems to treat its sex workers better than the more “enlightened” US. There is no way of knowing for sure, given the absence of official statistics and reliable information, but there are indirect indicators to that effect.
[quote]
Perhaps. But you will note that a Japanese woman is almost three times more likely to commit suicide than an American (while as men are only 1 and a quarter.)
This is off topic, but I disagree.
And? Prove that this has had good results and should be protected.
Japan also has a 90% confession rate. I would personally put that down as having had the larger effect on keeping problems down.
Middle-class teenage girls in the US aren’t doing it, so it isn’t something that one needs worry about is it?
The only figure I have is suicide and that is for the entire population. If you find a better one, I’m perfectly fine to give it a look. But I have never been able to find it.
But anyways, you have stated that this is an issue of “social attitude”, so on what do you base this? Nothing I know points to that, and nothing I know points to the world being a better place for having prostitution legal.
Wouldn’t this be a better argument for illegalising prostitution? Unless you can show that legalising prostitution will change societies outlook on it?
Legalising would just increase the amount of incidences of rape, and I would personally not be inclined to believe that incidences of rape of prostitutes is any lower in Japan than anywhere else.
If one was to take away the moral issue with sex, prostitution would be just another job, just like a masseur, regulated by the Department of Labor Occupational Safety and Health Organization
What is the difference between a woman massaging a man with a woman having sex with a man?
In ancient greece prostitutes were living in the temple of afrodite and they were called priestesses, the people of that time didnt have a problem with them cause it didnt clash with their religious beliefs.
So it appears that the only reason we take offence to prostitution is because our religion (christianity in this case) views sex as a sin.
Gah. All right let me just re-reitterate where I’m coming from:
I have no issue with sex, free sex, prostitution, masterbation, nor running at the pool. I am arguing against prostitution because everything I have read on, or related to the subject appears to always end up with things going south. And the reasons gleaned from that for things going bad isn’t what everyone here is suggesting (i.e. “society’s disapproval”), and even were it, no one has tied together how legalising prostitution is supposed to solve that.
That all statistics and reports from prostitutes is in the majority negative, isn’t my fault. If it was all positive–even if it seemed like it should be negative–I would have no issue whatsoever with legal prostitution. The only reason I argue against it is because nothing factual that I have seen has shown that it is in any way something necessary nor good for society, nor that it hasn’t consistently turned bad and harmful to the women involved. And in the research for all of my posts, the idea that government-managed, registered and legal prostitution would actually be effective in improving anyones situation but the johns has–if anything–decreased.
So, I’m sorry but looking at what facts there are and that can acually be proven, it just is all bleak. It shouldn’t be, it doesn’t need to be, the world is an awful place for that being true, and I fully admit that. But there’s nothing I can do about it. If you find stuff that shows otherwise, I’ll be delighted to be proven wrong as being right about bad things isn’t a favorite past time. And I don’t mean that as a challenge. If Japanese prostitutes are unaffected except for a heavier wallet and the US has a chance of hell of becoming that way, then you’ve made my day. But otherwise, I can take a break from googling this any more.
There might be another reason. In George Bernard Shaw’s “Man and Superman,” Don Juan refers to marriage as “the trades unionism of the married.” And the whores are scabbing.*
*'Cause they couldn’t afford to get vaccinated! Nyuk-nyuk-nyuk!
The first is probably a minor point, since nobody’s really arguing vociferously either way, but “prostitutes decrease property values” and “prostitutes develop low self-esteem” are not valid logical reasons why prostitution should be criminalized. Prostitutes decrease property values because prostitution is illegal. If prostitution were legalized, over time, brothels / red light districts would lower property values no less than liquor stores or casinos. (That is, there is still an element of potentially addictive behavior bringing an increase in crime, but that the majority of the stigma attached would be taken away)
I criticize the statistics that show 75% had attempted suicide and 92% wanted to leave – after all, this poll was taken of a population which, by virtue of its criminality, is self-selective for people who are desperate. While it’s probably wrong to say 75% of low-wage workers attempt suicide, I wouldn’t be surprised if you gave prostitutes the same low-wage jobs and forced them to work with a customer base that was selective for being jerks, that 75% of them would still try and commit suicide. That is, I believe that the statistics are a function of the selection of the individuals, not the selection of profession.
I personally don’t know what to think about prostitution, so this isn’t an indication of what “side” I’m on. I’m just criticizing various arguments.
I agree that legal debate is pretty pointless – no politician will ever be able to propose legalization / decriminalization of prostitution without a hefty political price.
