Prostitution

[Sleel]

Sorry for the late reply, I haven’t had time for visiting the board lately. I had to split this over two posts due to the length.

I want to be absolutely and clearly understood: I do not think that Japanese society in general is all that great. In fact, I’ve been a pretty vocal critic of Japan on other topics. Japan’s prostitution situation is also not completely free of problems. However, it is an industrial nation with relatively few problems usually associated with prostitution. That is why I think it is a good example of what works.

@Sage Rat

Cite? It could just as easily be argued that once prositution began to be outlawed, most nations just did a “Yeah, we know it’s not cool” and illegalised it without needing to be pressed…except the one nation which kept took sex slaves for its military from its neighboring nations 60 years ago and still refuses to face up to it properly and of course still hasn’t illegalised it.

War crimes do not belong in a discussion about the legality/illegality issue of prostitution. War has little to do with the actions of a stable nation during peacetime. I have discussed the ian-fu issue in relation to Japan’s lies about its history and its constant denial of war crimes, but it has no place in this discussion. It has about as much connection to the situation at hand as the atomic bombings have to gun control in the US.

Japan’s main law concerning prostitution is the 1956 Anti-Prostitution Law which prohibited some of the things that usually lead to problems with prostitution, such as procuring and pimping. Historically, Japan has taken a pretty hands-off approach to prostitution. The Edo era edicts limited it to a specific area and regulated it, but did not ban it outright, even though the Shogun probably had the power to do so and enforce it.

The existing provisions are not much more than window dressing. Laws specifically concerning teenage prostitution date only from the 1990s. I cannot find a citation, but in some news articles I read, pressure from the international community and the PTA associations (which are themselves modeled on American PTA organizations) were mentioned as the main impetus for the new laws. Until recently, none of the laws have been particularly restrictive. Japan is sometimes very sensitive to how it is viewed from the outside. Other times, it seems not to care a whole lot. This is one of the issues that is becoming important to Japan only because it seems to be such a big deal to the outside world.

Except in no other profession is a human the commodity.

You’ve said this before, and repeating it doesn’t make it any more true. It is your interpretation of the situation. In this case, the Japanese women in the sex trade are generally active and willing participants, not trapped by economics or violence into doing something they would rather not. I think they are providing a service, you view it as selling themselves. They are not slaves, they are not selling themselves. I think your view is both patronizing and incorrect. Ultimately, however, we are not the ones whose opinions matter. It is up to the prostitutes to decide how they view it.

It’s the interpretation of the majority of prostitutes–or prove that wrong.

Which ones? Where? Under what legal and social circumstances? You haven’t done anything to prove that right, why would I waste my time proving it wrong?

We’ve already discussed the difficulties inherent in trying to determine what problems are due to the de facto illegality of prostitution in most nations and what problems are inherent to the act of prostitution. My stance is that most of the problems are due to its illegal status and partially due to related social stigma. That is why I brought up Japan as one of the best examples of a place where prostitution is not particularly stigmatized and is not particularly illegal. The women doing it here don’t seem to have the problems you’ve pointed out. That is not proof, but it indicates that prostitution in and of itself is probably not particularly harmful.

Citations of mentally ill or drug addicted prostitutes, who are self-selecting as a result of seeking help, are pointless and in my opinion do nothing to advance your case. In fact, I would say that they weaken it in that the illegal status of their profession makes them into victims with fewer protections and access to help than if they were able to prostitute themselves under the protection of the law. Johns feel that they have more license to abuse the women because of a distinct lack of zeal in solving such crimes and she may be further abused by the system if she attempts to get help from authorities.

Well then show that it is better in countries where it is legal.

I have. You’re now disputing it.

I don’t know enough about Amsterdam or Australia to bring it into the discussion. I don’t do Google-based fake brightness. I discuss what I know and back it up with appropriate references. If someone can address those countries or others they know about I would be grateful, but I will not talk about what I don’t know. I know the US and I know Japan, that’s it.

Perhaps. To some extent, indeed, doms may be more healthy than straight-sex workers. But if that is so, I would imagine that it would be because it draws a particular kind of person.
But I meant it more as an example of how what appearances are doesn’t have to be what is really going on in anyones head. Most of the girls doing this may enjoy the work, but just as much that having sex with your wife is different in terms of equality as with having sex with a prostitute, while Dom/Sub couples at home probably truly are the Dom and Sub, once one party is paying the Dom is no longer the Dom. Whether that turns out for the best or worse just depends on whether the girl feels like she is being used.

I don’t even know what this is doing here. It was a tangent earlier and you’re continuing your pursuit of it. I’ve won the point and even I want to drop it.

I wouldn’t necessarily say that this bit aids your argument. I would find it more likely that the surplus of girls would be ones who wanted to be able to switch positions–and for those I would imagine that they would find that their position had not changed or at least not for the better. The Madam most probably stopped them as a safety net (e.g. to protect the clients or the girl’s emotional state) more than a “doesn’t have the proper dramatic flair” type thing.

I’m not sure what you mean by “switch positions.” If I’m guessing correctly, you are saying that the women who want to try being a dominatrix were involved in the sex trade before, perhaps for the same madam as their brothel, and now want to do something else. No, most of the tryouts were women who’d never done anything in the sex trade before, but liked the idea of S/M, liked the potential cash, and decided to give it a go.

Yes, but 75% of telemarketers aren’t trying to commit suicide, 92% of them don’t want out of their job immediately, and there is no particular argument to be made that the job is inherently sexist or demeaning.

Yes, but telemarketers aren’t threatened with criminal prosecution; the possibility of physical violence from customers, their bosses, and the police; police extortion; and don’t face disgust and disapproval by those who learn what they do for a living. If prostitution were made legal, I would expect the rates to go to something more normal for a profession involving a large amount of potentially stressful social interaction. Citing statistics that apply to the current situation doesn’t prove anything because the current situation for prostitutes sucks.

That’s like comparing the rates of suicide and desire to change jobs between pharmacy techs and drug dealers. Guess what, I’ll bet that drug dealers have a lot more work stress than pharmacy techs even though they are doing the same basic thing. One’s legal, the other isn’t. That makes a bit of a difference.

I don’t see the place where Cecil says a woman is required. Or shall we only legalise prostitution for men with no arms?

Hey, you’re the one who brought it up. I thought it was pointless and unrelated. It was also easily refuted. You were wrong, forget about it.

Here

Just look at the countries cited. In four of the five (South Africa, Thailand, Turkey, Zambia) I would be genuinely surprised if people not involved in prostitution didn’t show some PTSD. The overall rape and violent crime rate --not just for sex workers, overall-- in South Africa is huge. There are many people who have pointed out that the circumstances surrounding illegal prostitution in the US lends itself to abuses. Prostitutes are abused by their customers and again by the legal system. Duh, of course they have problems.

Anyway, as I said earlier, prostitutes probably will have problems due to the working conditions in many countries. I just wanted to point out that no one had provided a citation yet. Thank you for posting it, but this is really unconvincing if you’re trying to make a case for prostitution being a Really Bad Thing.

[Sleel]

But how does legalising prostitution change that? Can you give evidence that the life of prostitutes is better in countries where it is legal?

If prostitution were legal, prostitutes would have access to the courts for prosecuting abuse and their testimony would have some weight. Now, their testimony could incriminate them and they face potential legal prosecution for appealing to authorities for protection from abusive or potentially deadly customers. Abusive johns think, rightly in many cases, that they can get away with hurting or even killing a prostitute. If it were legal, prostitutes would be able to set up more secure situations, get rid of the subservient relationship with a pimp, and protect their safety and peace of mind through legal means. This would be a big step up.

You don’t hear about the women in Nevada brothels routinely being beaten up by their customers. If a guy is abusive, the house throws him out and calls the cops. The prostitute or the house will probably even bring charges against him that will be legally enforced. In most of the sex-related businesses in Japan, the girls are never more than a scream away from help. Those who do it privately, on their own, and who make up the majority of the sex trade, are able to meet and talk to their customers in a public and therefore fairly safe environment before going to a love hotel or somewhere else to close the deal. They have ways of advertising and meeting customers so that they don’t have to be involved in something as risky as streetwalking. Among US prostitutes, I would bet that call girls, who have somewhat the same setup as the majority of Japan’s prostitutes, have many fewer problems than the average.

As said, the reason I would believe from reading interviews with women (albeit suicidal ones–though I’m going to order that one book now) is an issue of the women feeling that sex, as an emotional involvement and as an intimate and intrinsic part of their body, when done specifically with anyone or just for money has the effect of “valuing” their body and by extension themselves.

This is, again, a self-selected group. Women who like prostitution are not going to be represented. Regardless of its legal status, social stigma will still remain attached to it for some time. I do not expect that problem to go away overnight. And I would not dispute that many women view sex as having some bearing on their self-value, but those women should probably not be prostitutes any more than someone who doesn’t like public speaking should go into politics.

The only solution to that is to get women (and I would assume men as well) to not hold any emotional attachment to sex or relating that to their body and their self. But I don’t know that I would want to live in such a world.

This is not an either/or situation. There are other choices: to give sex work the same kind of difficult-but-valued status that doctors, police, and those who work with the mentally ill enjoy. Even better would to be more positive about it and try cultivate the outlook that you’re helping to improve someone’s life by making him/her feel good. I’m not holding my breath on that one though.

Your statement is both a generalization and a projection of your attitudes about sex onto something you have no personal experience with. There are people who work as prostitutes who do not feel de-valued through their experiences. My sister, who worked as an escort, proudly said once, “I’m not a cheap whore, I’m a #^¢*in’ expensive one.” She started out with low self worth and actually gained confidence and a higher opinion of herself in relation to the world through prostitution. Now her attitude is: I’m not screwed up, but some of my customers were.

No, no, I was just pointing out that I had discussed that previously and didn7t want to copy and paste down. But, to quote:

Sorry, but it sounded snippy, and as I said, it was one line of my post. Not a big deal to ignore one line without comment if it’s something that has already been covered, is it? The monster quote was a bit much. I was aware that it had been discussed. Thus, the one line instead of a couple paragraphs.

Perhaps. But you will note that a Japanese woman is almost three times more likely to commit suicide than an American (while as men are only 1 and a quarter.)

And this concerns prostitution how? Are you implying that more women in Japan kill themselves because they are involved in prostitution? That would be ridiculous if you were. There are quite a few women who prostitute themselves for a while, but it’s nowhere near the numbers required to boost the rates that much. It’s no secret that Japanese society doesn’t look down on suicide as much as Western countries do. They usually off themselves at about twice the rate of most other industrial countries and it’s more likely to be as an adult than a teen. One of the reasons is that the society is very repressive to everyone.

You might as well ask why there is such a discrepancy between men and women in the US. According to your source, men in the US have more than twice the rate of suicide as women do, whereas the disparity is smaller in Japan.

Does that mean that men in the US are particularly abused compared to women? No, it’s meaningless in this discussion.

Re: Yakuza

This is off topic, but I disagree.

If it’s off topic, you should have said something before. You commented on it and I rebutted. If you want to drop it, I have no objection though.

And? Prove that this has had good results and should be protected.

If it doesn’t cause a problem, it shouldn’t be subject to control. You’ve got the cart in front of the horse. You should have to prove there’s harm before you start to prohibit things. Your contention is that women didn’t really want to be prostitutes and that it is somehow always detrimental to their self image and well being. That is demonstrably false, at least in the case of Japanese teen prostitutes.

On the other hand, it’s pretty darn obvious that criminalizing it definitely doesn’t contribute to everyone playing nice with each other.

Japan also has a 90% confession rate. I would personally put that down as having had the larger effect on keeping problems down.

You don’t really want to open the can of worms that is the justice system in Japan. The problems I was referring to were not the low rate of violent crime, which is due in part to the society and in part to the overarching police state present in Japan. The US or any free country really does not want to emulate the Japanese system. I promise you, you wouldn’t like it.

I was referring to emotional and social problems. There aren’t really any. If the girls felt they had low self worth from doing “dates” I would expect to see their grades dropping off, signs of self-abuse, a higher rate of suicide, violence, rebellion, and the like. In fact, the girls who prostitute themselves are sometimes the brighter, more ambitious girls and by and large they don’t end up getting screwed up by their experiences. There’s a very low rate of teenage pregnancy and almost everyone graduates from high school. Most people would say that teenagers are more impressionable and emotionally unstable than adults, so you would expect any problems to be especially obvious in that group.

What does the absence of problems among teenage prostitutes in Japan tell us? That probably prostitution in and of itself does not necessarily mean having a bad self image, being involved in traumatic experiences, or any of the other things you’ve been claiming all along.

Middle-class teenage girls in the US aren’t doing it, so it isn’t something that one needs worry about is it?

That only tells you something about the screwed up conditions for prostitutes in the US. They don’t consider it to be an option because it’s something only the “dregs” of society do. The social disapproval and risks involved are just that strong. That’s what I’ve been saying all along: the reason prostitutes have such a bad time is because we as a society want them to be miserable for choosing that path. That is not the case in Japan, so girls go into it with a positive attitude and emerge with far less damage.

The only figure I have is suicide and that is for the entire population. If you find a better one, I’m perfectly fine to give it a look. But I have never been able to find it.

This article talks about Japan’s social attitude toward suicide and what people are doing recently to prevent it. This one gives an even more in-depth view. While youth suicide is mentioned, the consensus is that the adult suicide rates are much more worrying and may have influenced children and teens to higher rates of suicide than before. Either way, this is a social problem that crosses generation lines in Japan and as such doesn’t really pertain to this discussion.

I searched for “Japan suicide rate” without the quotes, and then again with the inclusion of “teen” and got these articles. A good place for stats on stuff like this is also the World Health Organization. There’s a monster PDF I found there that I didn’t bother linking to.

But anyways, you have stated that this is an issue of “social attitude”, so on what do you base this? Nothing I know points to that, and nothing I know points to the world being a better place for having prostitution legal.

Well it’s definitely not a better place for having made it illegal either. The very fact that we are talking about the problems related to prostitution means that it is a bad situation. Legalization is one solution, and the one that makes the most sense to me. All consensual crimes are going to be endemic to a society because people want to do them, that’s what consensual means after all.

I think that it’s a problem related to social attitude because, as we both agree, making prostitution legal would not get rid of all the problems, it would merely get rid of most of the violence, shady dealings, and dual victimization of the prostitutes from the johns and the justice system. The social stigma would remain for a time.

But take a similar case: pre-marital sex and cohabitation. There was nothing illegal about it, but social attitudes toward it have mellowed considerably since the 1950s. Women then were “ruined” by living with a man before getting married. Women were “scandalous” and considered to be “hussies” for having sex with men without getting married. Women lost jobs, suffered social ostracision, and lost jobs over it. Undoubtedly, some suicides were related to this social attitude. Give prostitution 20-50 years of legal status, and the absence of the associated negative propaganda we give all our consensual crimes, and I predict that few people will think it’s much worse than having sex before you get married.

Wouldn’t this be a better argument for illegalising prostitution? Unless you can show that legalising prostitution will change societies outlook on it?

No, it is illegal because of the social attitude. If people didn’t have moral and social objections to it, it wouldn’t be illegal at all. If people thought rationally about it, it wouldn’t be illegal. This is moralizing legislation, with little or no basis in any fact. It’s illegal because people have an emotional reaction to it.

Legalising would just increase the amount of incidences of rape, and I would personally not be inclined to believe that incidences of rape of prostitutes is any lower in Japan than anywhere else.

What do you base this on?

I’ve already pointed out, repeatedly, that the circumstances surrounding the ILLEGAL sex trade are what make rape more likely. Legal status gives legal protection. Legal status means that prostitutes can advertise, have their own facilities where they can take security precautions, and can call the cops if they have a problem with a customer. Making prostitution illegal is what forces them to go out on the streets to get customers. The illegal status means that johns face much less chance of facing any consequences for crimes committed against prostitutes. The lack of protection from the law is what forces them to look to violent people willing to commit violent crimes for protection instead.