Pseudotriton ruber ruber: Nice Guy

[JR_Brown]

@KarlGrenze

The same posters have said in the same posts you’re citing (and I think elsewhere) that people who keep persisting (ugly or handsome) after being turned down will become quickly dismissed. Not that much different from what others have said, other than they’re more honest (and yes, that is true, IMHO, and I hate that you put it in quotes) by admitting that looks do matter, at least initially.

Several other posters in that thread, including myself, indicated that “good looks” do make a difference in whether an initial expression of interest is likely to receive a positive response. But the scenario presented in the original post (although pseudotriton later became very unclear and self-contradictory about what he was asking) was “How much does this guy’s LOOKS affect your feeling (or not feeling) creeped out?" after repeated rejection of the man’s advances. Part of pseudotriton’s problem seems (to me) to be that this wasn’t the topic that concerned him most, since he promptly conflated the two scenarios (initial approach vs. unwanted persistence).

JRB

[phouka]

In this thread on “honest” people, Little Nemo is the first to bring up the habit some have of accusing others of what they themselves are guilty of. It’s called projection.

prr would have us believe that those who disagree with him are too feeble-minded to understand the question or too insecure or self-serving to answer the question honestly. Hmmm.

Seriously, prr, if I were into the self-serving thing, I would have saved the time and effort of typing and gone down stairs for a Dr. Pepper and a pudding snack. I gave my initial response because I honestly thought my reply would help you. When you made it clear that you weren’t interested in anything but congratulatory pats on the back, I figured I could at least hold you up to the rest of the board as an example of What Not To Do.

By the way, thanks for being so obliging on that. I can wave my hands and yell all I want, but your replies to the original thread and this one have made my case for me.

[burundi]

oops

[Der_Trihs]

@CAT_1

Are women meaner?
I am sure men and women are pretty even on the meanness scale. We just go about it in different ways.
But I have to say, I have never seen a women wearing the equivalent of a “No fat Chicks” t-shirt.

Does stuff like Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them! T-shirts count ?

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@pseudotriton_ruber_ruber

\

Gee, that’s funny. I think you’re a great, knowledgable, helpful, astute poster, other than in this thread. So far. You really didn’t think some of those refusals to accept (or even to understand) my hypothetical (which you seem think was “interesting”) were a little bit disingenuous? I had to accept ALL of them as totally raw, soul-searchingly honest for you to think well of me? That’s a shame.

Two things:

1. Thanks for the compliment! I wonder if your opinion of me will lead you to take my words here to heart, or if my words here will lead you to revise your opinion of me. I suspect the latter will be more comfortable.
2. Excluded middle: not everything in life is either disingenuous or “raw, soul-searchingly honest.” I saw no posts that struck me as dishonest; rather, I saw some folks that perceive the situation in fundamentally different terms from those in which you see it.
3. The dishonesty and disingenuity I saw appeared primarily to be coming from you, along with a huge dose of supercilious condescension toward women in general. It was freakin’ ugly.

Daniel

[Autolycus]

@CAT_1

I find the people who post here are all pretty intelligent, and maybe not the best cross section of the population to do your little scenario on. You would probably get a lot more answers to your liking if you posed the same thing to a broader bunch of women. There. Happy? BUT<<< and that is a big assed BUTT. I don’t think anyone was being dishonest, or at least not everyone but the two people who agreed with you!

Oh no you di’int!

[CAT_1]

@Der_Trihs

Does stuff like Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them! T-shirts count ?

Sort of. I have never seen a grown woman wearing anything like that though.
I have seen a few girls around 12 years old in stuff like that.

And I can’t tell you how many men I have seen in the “fat chicks” type of shirts. Tons. I even had a guy point to his shirt when I dared to walk past him once. I was just walking past him on a sidewalk with my friend. We were both chubby girls, but damn cute, and not at all obese or anything. He got a good laugh from his buddies for doing that, however. Nice.
So I probably have a complex now. And dammit all if I didn’t get fatter about 10 years later. Maybe he was just psychic.

[brazil84]

I think PRR had a good point in that thread. It looks to me like he hit an uncomfortable truth.

I don’t see any evidence in that thread that he is a stereotypical “nice guy.”

I would define a stereotypical “nice guy” as someone who is too supplicating in his approach to women, thereby turning them off; doesn’t understand the difference between being confident and being mean (or between being supplicating and being nice); and thus laments the fact that women seem to choose mean guys over nice guys.

[brazil84]

@CAT_1

But I have to say, I have never seen a women wearing the equivalent of a “No fat Chicks” t-shirt.

I’ve seen cars with bumper stickers saying “Life is too short to dance with short men” or something like that. Presumably, it’s mostly women who put bumper stickers like that on their cars.

I am sure men and women are pretty even on the meanness scale. We just go about it in different ways.

I would guess that’s probably true. I’ve met a lot of mean and nice people in my life, and I haven’t noticed any relationship between meanness/niceness and gender.

[you_with_the_face]

@brazil84

I think PRR had a good point in that thread.

Where? What was it?

[overlyverbose]

@brazil84

I think PRR had a good point in that thread. It looks to me like he hit an uncomfortable truth.

Could you elaborate?

[brazil84]

@overlyverbose

Could you elaborate?

I posted something in the thread.

[Beadalin]

@brazil84

I think that sums it up pretty well, and I think it’s a good point. Women have a tendency to view men’s behavior through the lens of how attractive they find the guy. More specifically, if a woman decides that a man is someone she would pretty much never consider as a romantic partner, then repeated advances by him are much more likely to be seen as creepy and offensive.

All of which indicates to me that you didn’t read anyone else’s responses, but whatever.

[brazil84]

@Beadalin

All of which indicates to me that you didn’t read anyone else’s responses, but whatever.

Feel free to quote a an example or two of some sentence you think I missed which you feel is important.

[Lamia]

phouka, I wanted to let you know I thought that was pretty low how prr questioned your honesty in that thread and then tried to pretend he hadn’t. Saying “you may find it hard to be honest” isn’t the same as flat out calling someone a liar, but it is casting doubt on their truthfulness (or at least self-awareness). In the context of the paragraph he clearly was suggesting that you just couldn’t handle admitting the truth about yourself/other women. Considering he chose a title for the thread that suggested that women are not usually honest when it comes to this issue, I have to agree with your assessment of his attitude:

@phouka

From here, prr extrapolates this conversation as representative not only of these two women’s character, but of all women and indeed all dealings between men and women. The rest of us women are supposed to confirm his insight and nod our heads in agreement. Anything less is a sure sign that we lack the mental faculties to keep up with his amazing cerebral gymnastics. Those who disagree with him should be pitied, as they have neither the stamina to cope with unpleasant topics or the moral fiber to be honest about them.

Since I’m here, I’ll also mention that the thread in question is a type I see all too often here and find very irritating: a Doper asks the SDMB to explain the behavior or opinions of someone they know in real life…and then isn’t happy with any of the responses. They either fail to precisely match the real-life situation (“No, she didn’t say that…no, that can’t be it…no, it wasn’t like that…”) or don’t totally condemn the real-life acquaintance. I’ve seen a couple of similar threads where someone eventually said “Well, you aren’t agreeing with me because you’re not like the people I know IRL.” But if there’s such a big difference, why ask here in the first place?

If someone wants to know so badly what another person they know in real life is thinking, they should ask that person. Maybe prr would have gotten the answer he was looking for if he’d bothered to ask his coworkers why they found some men creepy but not others. They are surely better qualified to explain their own behavior than are people here who’ve never even met them. Anyone not willing to do this just has to accept that other Dopers are each going to have their own perspective on things, and that this may have nothing at all to do with what the real-life acquaintance was thinking. There’s no point asking the SDMB for opinions if that’s not what one really wants.

[even_sven]

Anybody who starts out with the thesis “The reason why women don’t like me as much as they should is that they are all _____________ and it is so unfair!” is probably feeling Nice Guy Syndrome.

Part of NGS is thinking that women all want to date you, they are just too ___________ to know it.

[pseudotriton_ruber_ruber]

@even_sven

Anybody who starts out with the thesis “The reason why women don’t like me as much as they should is that they are all _____________ and it is so unfair!” is probably feeling Nice Guy Syndrome.

Part of NGS is thinking that women all want to date you, they are just too ___________ to know it.

And you’re not charging that I ever said, or expressed anything like, either of those loopy statements, are you, Sven? Women like me just fine, they’re all individuals with diffeering opinions (as you demonstrated in that thread, among other women with differing positions), I have no idea how you think I expect women “should” feel about me personally, which never came up in that thread AFAIK, and nothing at all is unfair IMO. Other that, you nailed it.

I thought overgeneralizing was bad, bad, bad. Apparently, sometimes it’s good. Surprise, surprise.

[brazil84]

It looks to me like PRR made an observation which (1) applies mainly to women; (2) can be seen as negative; and (3) has to do with women’s preferences in dating/romance and so the OP assumed he was an embittered “nice guy” That doesn’t seem to be the case, but even if true, I don’t think it undermines his original argument.

[accidentalyuppie]

I think the entire argument is a circular semantic exercise.

I would define attractive as “someone who exhibits qualities I find appealing and interesting and as such these qualities make me interested in spending time with them”.

So, then this whole brouhaha is happening because I don’t want to spend time with someone I don’t want to spend time with??? WTF ???

Maybe you are sayng that you think “looks” figure too much into my equation of attraction. Sure. I think that all the men I find attractive are undeniably good looking.

My friends feel the same way about the men they date, although I often don’t understand what the hell they see in some of these fat little balding guys that they fall all over. On the other hand, they fail to appreciate the totally adorablity of the cute little potbellies and bald spots sported by the men I have gone crazy over.

And my friends are often extraordinarily resistant to the advances of some guys that I think would put Adonis to shame and sometimes they can’t understand why I am put off by some jerk that they think is heaven on earth.

And it works the other way…I can think of many times when some guy I thought was amazingly attractive only had eyes for some other girl who was no better looking then me, just not me. And she often had no idea of what she was walking away from because she thought some bland boring guy was the cat’s pajamas.

But normal people take this part of life in stride and don’t make it all about themselves and act like obnoxious assholes and sooner or later you like someone that likes you back and all is right with the world

[phouka]

@brazil84

It looks to me like PRR made an observation which (1) applies mainly to women; (2) can be seen as negative; and (3) has to do with women’s preferences in dating/romance and so the OP assumed he was an embittered “nice guy” That doesn’t seem to be the case, but even if true, I don’t think it undermines his original argument.

BZZZZZT!

Nope. Try rereading for comprehension.

The problem here is not that prr made a negative observation about women’s preferences in dating/romance.

The problem is that he asked for female posters’ honest opinions about a poorly written hypothetical situation and then went all passive-aggressive, mealy mouthed moron jerk when he didn’t like the answers he got. I called him on it. He applied some lube to his hair and stuck his head up his ass.

Right now, he’s busy listening to the echoes of his own projection and rationalization and calling it wisdom. I’ll bet if he listens closely, he can also hear the ocean.