Ladies, let’s be honest

Say a guy comes up to you, a total stranger, and says something mildly flirtatious, (some equivalent of “How YOU doing’?” that you’re totally unoffended by, just some polite, amusing chit-chat), you exchange a little more banter, 15 seconds’ worth, and as he leaves your presence he smiles at you and asks if he could see you sometime, continue the conversation, maybe at lunch. You decline: “Well, we’ve hardly met,” you say, being a proper lady and unaccustomed to dating total strangers.

He follows you for a few seconds, trying his best to persuade to change that answer to an affirmative one. You continue to decline his offer, and you part ways.

A few days later you run into him again, and again it’s a public setting, nowhere you feel uncomfortable encountering him, and he chats you up again, and again asks you out. You decline again, and request that he stop asking you –you DON’T want to date him, you say firmly but sweetly.

Let’s say this goes on for a while, with the same results. My question is NOT whether you break down eventually and change your mind, and it’s NOT whether there’s a point that a stranger asking you out persistently feels so creepy to you that you start getting alarmed by it, and it’s not even how much time has to pass before you start getting creeped out by his not taking “No” for a definitive answer: my question (and here’s where your honesty comes in) is “How much does this guy’s LOOKS affect your feeling (or not feeling) creeped out?”

I raise this question because my eyebrows always go up just a smidgen when women complain about unwanted attention. When a woman complains that some guy is being a pest to her, by persistently asking her out, flirting, being smarmy or too personal with her, behaving inappropriately in the workplace, etc., I’m always slightly suspicious that, if this unwanted attention were coming from the woman’s personal equivalent of Brad Pitt, she would gladly tolerate it (to say the least) for a much longer period of time, if not indefinitely (assuming she’d be able to resist it at all.) I’m talking about the same exact approach, the same voice, the same words, the same exact behavior, mind you, so there’s no “Oh, well, coming from Brad Pitt, with that sexy voice of his…” because it’s the pattern of behavior that you are complaining about, just coming from someone far less attractive, not his appearance.

I’m not for a second contending that you don’t have an absolute right to be attracted to someone on the basis of his looks—I’m sure looksism got me much undeserved female attention in my twenties and thirties, and I thank you (generically) for that—but if your negative response to being hit on by someone you don’t consider so attractive has to do with his appearance, then isn’t that simply the price you have to pay for attention that you DO want? And not simply something you can object to as offensive, creepy, etc.?

I’m asking this question of you, and not guys, partly because I take for granted how enormously looks-oriented guys are, but mainly because guys very rarely complain about unwanted attention. It’s my contention that complaints about creepy come-ons are largely affected by the recipient’s attraction to the person coming on to her. Confirm or deny? And please, let’s be rigorously honest.

Quite a bit. But not so much as the general vibe I get from the guy.
And if the guy is way out of my league when it comes to attractiveness, (say dr Carter from ER, Brad’s nose is too small for me :slight_smile: ) I might even find the whole thing creepier. After all, what does that super handsome guy want with me, if it isn’t some evil kidnapping scheme, an elaborate frat boy prank, or maybe he just wants to sell me some AmWay shares?

But I’m specifying the same exact general vibe. Only his looks differ.

I’m sensing a confirmation here, that “general vibe” has quite a lot to do with “looks” if you insist on confusing the two.

I don’t think it’s confusion, so much as there’s a lot of overlap between “looks” and “general vibe”. For instance, you ever heard the phrase “You clean up good”? A guy who doesn’t appear to be good looking quite possibly has the potential to be good looking if he’s wearing nicer clothes, recently showered, done something with his hair and possibly wearing cologne.

If a guy is generally dirty or unkempt, there might be a good looking guy under there, but he’s still going to give off a bad vibe. The flip side of that coin is that an “average-looking” guy who looks clean, somewhat stylish can move up the ladder from “average-looking” to “pretty good looking”. In fact, if a guy is giving off a good vibe and is clean, etc. I’m likely to look for things in him to be attracted to (like, hey, that guy’s not what you’d call handsome, but he’s got great eyes", etc.)

So I don’t know how far you can go to separate looks from the “vibe”.

If George Clooney asked me out every time he saw me, yes, even if I didn’t rip his clothes off and have my way with him, I’d be amused and flattered.

If Steve Buscemi did it – exact same words, timing, tone of voice – I’d be really pissed off.

Clear enough?

You may assume (if it’s not clear from the OP) that both the unattractive guy and Brad Pitt are exactly as “clean” or as “unkempt” as each other. Both smell the same, both are dressed similarly, both have recently had the same attention paid to their hair, etc,. etc., etc., etc., etc.

Why this is such a subtle and difficult concept is very interesting.

This is the point at which my “we have nothing in common” and “holy crap, blokes are weird” filters come on. The whole idea of wanting to flirt with a complete stranger, who you’ve never previously exchanged a word with is Just. So. Alien to my way of thinking - I mean, I know guys are looks-oriented but this will never stop seeming weird to me.

However, lets modify the situation somewhat - say you’re someone who I don’t think it totally bizarre to flirt with - we’ve previously exchanged pleasantries, or we’re doing some shared activity, or you’re a friend of a friend. Oh, and say I’m single :wink:

Then, all personality issues aside, good looks (by my standards, which are not at all universal) may be able to get you over the line between the “I’m not interested in a relationship and I wish you’d back off” category and the “I am interested in a relationship” category. But that’s it. There is no “I’m not interested in a relationship but gee that’s flattering” category. Doesn’t exist.

And that’s an outside chance too. Far more likely that if I find your conversation interesting this will cause me to decide you are good looking, irrespective of what your looks actually are.

Not very much, actually. I would only find it creepy if his words, actions, or tone of voice made me feel uncomfortable for some reason. Me not finding a man attractive doesn’t make him a creep!

A handsome pest is the same as a non-handsome pest to me. Neither will be kindly received on my part.

^What she said. Also, to my mind, looks and vibes are entirely separate. I’ve had it come up where a really fine piece of man totally squicks me out. OTOH, some guys who are just so-so looking can be really attractive for reasons other than the physical. Looks also seem to change based on my perception of a person. A decent looking dude who’s an asshole gets uglier. And an average dude who is always wonderful became absolutely scrumptious, so I married him.:wink:

G’morning!

When I was in that stage of life, looks were never a factor, but the general, overall package, with a strong emphasis on the proverbial ‘vibes’ would make my decision for me. In the situation you describe, I think I’d probably find another bus stop, subway station, or other place to be if someone were to ‘Pester’ me to the point of distraction. YMMV. - Jesse.

I know you wanted input from women, but I’ll chime in with my own $.02.

As a gay guy (if I may say so, an attractive one who can have his pick of attractive guys) I’m always a bit perplexed when trolls hit on me. It’s vaguely insulting (if he thinks he has a chance, he must not find me all that attractive) and/or creepy (if his sense of reality is so poor, how far will he go?).

I imagine it’s much the same for women, though of course they’re free to correct me.

I agree with this. I’ve known a few guys that I thought were hot when I saw them from across the room, but became very unattractive once I met them and found out how unpleasant their personalities were. And I’ve known some average looking guys that became hot after I met them and found out they were smart and funny and interesting and just overall great guys.

So, even if I think the guy is good looking the first time we talk and I turn him down, after the third or fourth time I turn him down and he doesn’t get the hint, he would stop being hot in my mind and would just be the obnoxious creepy guy.

Well put. I find it odd, too. Some guy rolls up on you as a complete stranger and wants to go out with you. The only thing he has to base it on is how you look. I mean, he’s obviously not going to approach a woman that he finds unattractive, but preference on looks is not enough to make me want to go out with someone.

Yes. If I tell you no, I expect my decision to be respected regardless if he disagrees with me or not. I wouldn’t care if he was gorgeous, he’s trying to tell me that he knows me better than I know myself.

In the situation the OP describes he’d get a polite “No thank you” from me after he first asked. Follow me and try to convince me? He’d get a “I said no, bugger off.” Try me over and over again if you see me out? You’re a loser and my responses are only going to get ruder from there.

For me, it would matter considerably, but not for the reasons you think. Your example situation is too extreme for me; I’d be creeped out by any stranger who flirted with me like that. However, if we assume it’s a situation in which I’m comfortable with someone flirting with me, I’d find it less creepy if the attractive guy did it more than once. Not inherently because it’s less creepy when an attractive guy does it, but because of feedback. If a guy I find interesting flirts with me, even if I’m not interested in dating him for a logistical reason, I’d be fairly likely to at least smile and maybe joke with him. If a guy I find utterly repulsive flirts with me, even if he’s equally clean, well-dressed, etc, I’d be looking to give him no encouragement whatsoever and, beyond basic civility, make it clear that I had no interest in him.
Someone who flirts with you a second time after you flirt back a little: not creepy. Someone who comes back to flirt with you only because he’s completely ignored your utter lack of interest: creepy.

/edit: I’m obviously distilling this to the threshold where a guy I like has the edge. Anyone who keeps at it crosses the “creepy” line, no matter what they look like. .

Agreed!
If one is determined to be persistant, they need to do it without disrespecting the other person. The guy would’ve been better off accepting the answer to begin with. Upon meeting again, a friendly conversation could happen. Depending on the length of the conversation would indicate whether or not it would be ok for the man to ask again. However, I wouldve preferred something of a non-date approach and slowly building up to an actual date.

Every single thing I’ve heard or read about serial killers says to trust your instincts. If the guy is giving you “bad vibes,” get away from him. Don’t worry about looking foolish or making a scene, get away. You could be saving your life.

If he wants you to do anything and you say “no” and he persists, that means he is trying to control you. Very bad sign. Ask him “What part of no do you not understand The N or the O?”

Any guy who approached me out of the blue like that, and who kept running into me and asking me out, would set off my creep-o-meter. I’m a very shy person (until you get to know me), and I couldn’t imagine doing that to a guy myself, so it would really bother me.

I agree with the previous poster who said an amazingly attractive guy doing this would weird me out more than a fairly attractive guy or an unattractive guy. I would be thinking “frat boy prank”/In the Company of Men/something criminal or bad.

Psychological research, last I read up on the subject, showed that people generally tend to go for someone at their own level of attractiveness. An unattractive guy pursuing me would lead me to think he’s desperate and maybe just hitting on every woman he could find just in case one says yes, which would make me uncomfortable. A very attractive guy hitting on me would probably make me think something else was wrong with him if he was pursuing me.

So probably the immediate reaction would be worse for the unattractive guy, from the more primal “looks” response, but afterwards, thinking it over, the attractive guy would probably lose more points. I can sympathize with not liking your looks and feeling ugly (I had a nasty battle with acne as a teenager, which you can’t tell these days), so I would probably cut the unattractive guy slack later, but I’d worry the attractive guy was ugly on the inside.

It’s not always about looks. I’ve been asked out more than once by guys who were intrigued by what I was reading or doing at the time.

In any event, most people have a certain calculus that they use to determine “attractive enough to ask out.” It’s not always based on looks. If a guy comes across as interesting, then he may be someone I would want to at least get to know better before I made any sort of judgment on dateability. But then, looks have never really mattered to me, so if the handsome man doesn’t interest me, I’ve got no issues with turning him down cold.

Of course, I am married, so I’m not looking for romantic partners. But I think this is true no matter what kind of relationship is at stake.

Robin

Same, but for me, switch Steve Buscemi with George Clooney. Mmm, Steve Buscemi…

But seriously, at some point, having a cuter guy be interested might be more fun, but after a few…I don’t know what, of him constantly trying, it’ll get creepy no matter who he is. And that’s more about him being insistent/not taking no for an answer than anything else.