Read with caution, please. Not for the easily offended.

Great Debates
1

This is my first post ever, in GD. Due to the subject matter, I felt this is where it belongs.

I would first like to say that I want to be as tactful as possible. If anyone becomes offended by what follows, is by their ownb choosing. Offense is certainly not my intention.

I spent a few hours browsing local online personal ads this evening. What I found is discouraging.

The majority of females who matched my emotional interests and standards, are unfortunately lacking in physical appeal. I wonder why this is? Too often it seems that outer beauty = selfish and cold, whereas homely and/or heavy = selfless and caring. I don’t wish to stereotype. I am simply stating what I have observed in my research and nothing beyond that.

With the above said, I want to point out a highly arguable statement. I am capable and willing to emotionally love a person, regardless of looks. I could love (extremely care for) a 250 pound woman who is uglier than all-get-out. I may even risk my life for said individual, should the occasion arise. However, if there is no physical attraction, then it ain’t gonna happen to become less than 100% strictly platonic.

Do NOT get me wrong. I do NOT think looks are all that matter, by any means. The most beuatiful person in the world can have the ugliest heart. The ugliest person in the world can have the most beautiful heart. Love is not defined by sexual interaction. I would venture to say some loves which were strictly platonic, may have been more extraordinary than a fully loving sexual relationship. A goof fictional example would be the X Files Scully & Mulder, the Hunchback and the Gypsy girl, or perhaps even classic Romeo & Juliet.

I would be lying to myself and to anyone else to say that I do not want a relationship to include both healthy strong emotional feelings, as well as sexual attraction/interaction.

Looks don’t exactly matter, but they are a great accessory. If wanting to have my cake and eat it too, is a mortal sin, then I am doomed. I don’t think I am that bad anyway. I am not as picky as many would believe either. Every person sees everyone else in their own way. Someone I think is drop dead gorgeous, can look butt ugly to someone else, and vice versa. My dream is to find that special someone who is not perfect, not Barbie, but someone who simply stimulates me physically as well as emtionally. This still covers a huge area. Instead of fishing in an ocean, I am fishing in a large lake. Patience is golden. Determination is too.

For the record, to those it would make a difference: I have dated and interacted with ladies who were far far far from being supermodels, whom I cared for with all my heart and was intensely physically attracted to. I had one GF who had scoliosis and a a surigally implanted rod in her back. Her back was noticably mis-shapen, but not gross or significantly. Some of my “friends” of the time, got creeped out just looking at her fully clothed. They would have hurled if they’d seen her surgical scars. None of that stuff ever bothered me one bit, except for the other jerks’ rude comments to me when she was not around. She was a full figured gal also. I loved her with all my heart and I thought she was beautiful. I am not a superficialist. I do not require perfection. I only want a pleasant balance,including if the scales are tipped some.

I don’t think I am better than anyone else. If someone thinks I am ugly, I don’t give a rat’s ass. They have a right to their own opinion and taste. I am happy with myself, and that’s all that matters, for my own sake. I’m no less disappointed by degrading comments than anyone else. I just don’t let them get to me. And as anyone would, I enjoy compliments when they are offered.
Is there really a point or question to all of this? Not really. I enjoy making observations about things and stating my feelings thereof. I like to stimulate thought and invoke emotion in myself and sometimes share. I hope this hasn’t offended anyone. If so, I sincerely apologize.

2

There are many possible explanations for your observations (which may or may not be correct).
[ul][li]People with less-than-average looks learn different life lessons than those with stellar looks, and the lessons they learn shape them into nicer people.[/li][li]People with great looks never have to work hard to get anything, so don’t bother to work on their personality.[/li][li]Your definition of ‘ugly’ is incorrect.[/li][li]You are Mark Serlin.[/li][/ul]

3

I used to be “average”, and then I got (even by my harsh self-standards) thin and cute, and now I’m plain fat. (Long, crying, whining story and I won’t get into it.)

I wasn’t a snot or anything when I was thin and cute, but geezuz…when you hang out in mostly-military bars and all these horny men come up and hit on you when all you’re trying to do is play pool and enjoy your beer it gets awfully annoying. Well, maybe I was a snot, because I WOULD cut on guys I didn’t know. It wasn’t anything personal; he was just the 19th guy to bug me that night, is all.

4

I have noticed that some very fine ladies do have some of the other fine qualities you mentioned. Unfortunately, they went for the fine lads who, also, seemed to have those fine qualities.

5

The uglier a person is the less positive attention they receive from their peers. The lack of positive attention causes them to “try harder” to make people like them. Attractive people, by definition, attract attention. They fend off attention from ugly or undesireable people by being rude. They also have larger ego’s than ugly people and it shows. They work at driving away all the losers (which is most people in their inflated opinion). They work at attracting people who are higher up the social food chain than they are. They do not work at attracting new friends from amongst their equals since they have all the friends they need. Just my opinion…

6

There is nothing at all to be offended about.

Physical attraction matters a great deal. There may not be hat many gals who will tell you up front that they wouldn’t go near an ugly, short bald fellow no matter how nice he was.

If you have the looks of Kate Moss, or Claudia Shiffer - not sure of that spelling - men are awed by the perfection and willing to shell out for it.

Put another way, the man gets the prettiest woman he can afford.

If you are stunning, and men are drooling and ready to do anything just to be in your presence, why bother developing personality?

A woman’s prime bargaining time is between 17 and 25. If the looks are hot enough, she marries well and never needs consider anything but keeping up those looks.

An anecdote, as one who got some of those perks, it was amusing to notice what guys would do for me. My BF never failed to point out that while I had been talking about what I needed, the guy never took his eyes off my chest.

So what? Didn’t ask for it, I was born that way.

That is about it, good looks equal freebies as long as the looks hold up.

7

good morning friends.

it is true that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. i have been with my lovely wife, the incomparable sunflower, for 28 years. i would not trade her for a line of nude, willing supermodels from here to the curb. true beauty shines from within her like a bright star on a dark night.

i do find it a bit amusing that a group of men will discuss women in the most superficial terms, and then complain that they are unable to find companionship. as far as they are concerned, kate moss and claudia schiffer are just waiting for a call from some fat, smelly construction worker with bad teeth.

if we are all waiting for kate moss, would it not be possible that all of the ladies are waiting for mel gibson?

8

Those ads often have hookers that stick out like sore rear ends.

“Young, funloving, flashy dresser wants to party all night with older married conventioneers with cash.”

9

Being a “geek” and since most of my friends are I have noticed an enormous gender-imbalance. I have several female friends, I can only think of one who is currently single, many are in serious long-term relationships. I have numerous male friends who are single. There are cultural forces that make it much more likely for a male to become interested in science/tech/computing etc., and while these may be decreasing, that doesn’t much help my age group. So I would say depending on the type of person you want you may be in a group with a gender-imbalance. (I’m sure there are social groups biased the other way as well, although I do not know of them myself.) Anyhow, if this is the case then the available women, which is what you are seeing when you date, are the ones that no one else has taken yet or whom could not make the relationships work (or sometimes had unfortunate circumstances or wanted time to themselves or whatever, I won’t say they’re all bad people or ugly or undesireable, it’s just statistically more likely for them to be).

10

Simple solution, surel: Just because you’re into science/tech/computing doesn’t mean you’re only allowed to date women who are also into science/tech/computing. Go take an evening Ballroom Dance class.

Incidentally, the “high tech geek = male” syndrome has struck on a wide scale in the Silicon Valley where I live. According to the Metro section of the San Jose Mercury News (April 1999), every ZIP code throughout the Silicon Valley has more men in it than women. Each and every ZIP code.

11

I read somewhere that a little study was done with a group of men to see what “type” of woman they found attractive. The group was shown pictures of husky women with pretty faces and pictures of skinny women with average and plain faces. The skinny plain girls won hands down. In a country where they say at least 50% of the population is overweight I find this to be just a tad ironic.

Oh and by the way a hint about personal ads…You’ll get absolutely nowhere by writing that you want a thin, petite, or athletic built woman. Most “normal” women have issues with their weight, even the ones that men would not consider fat, or issues with their bodies anyway. So many women that you might find completely acceptable to your standards will not even bother to apply. They will think you are looking for someone better looking than them and that you’re a jerk anyway. Many women will in turn not expound on their own attributes in personals because they are worried that they will be seen as “tooting their own horn”. If you use “average” the chances that you get answers to your own personal will be better.

It is a shame but it is attitudes just such as this that are so entrenched in our society that keep people apart. It’s no wonder that you hear men and women complain about each other in this way.

Needs2know…used to want to be admired for her mind, now she’s tickled to death when someone wants her body! Things do change as you get a little older.

12

How would one go about making the perfect woman? I think I would be correct in saying there are as many designs out there as there are men and there are a few women seeking that perfect woman as well.
The search can be like shopping for a car, I had to drive a few Volswagens before I found the Porsche I really wanted. Both are pretty nice cars, the VW is a little more reliable but the Porsche really gets my blood pumping.

13

Boy, talk about fucking stereotypes. Thin=cruel and harsh. Fat=jolly and happy.

I’m sorry MagicalSilverKey but you are just plain wrong. I’ve met many “fat” people who were full of themselves and extremely stuck up. I’ve met and dated many beautifull selfless nice people.

All I can say to you is that if what you are finding, you are looking in the wrong place. You might find someone who fits your ideal standards of beauty who happens to be too poor to have a computer, or maybe just doesn’t like posting personal ads on the internet.

Now I don’t know where you are located, but that might also have something to do with it.

Here is a personal site based in SF, plenty of techsavy “attractive” people on it.

http://www.craigslist.com/sfo/w4m/

14

lindsay, either you are not a woman, or you are so superficial that it serves you right that the most heartless rich bastard swept you off your feet with his 911 Turbo. Only to leave you in 3 years time for the next bimbo with even larger tits.

Sometimes, one has to be blunt. I’m sorry, DavidB :wink:

15

I confess, I, also, have perused the various encounter ads on the web, though mainly those on AOL because you are not required to pay before being able to contact the person. Many of the others lead you on, show you pretty girls and then try to screw you out of $20 to $40 for the E-mail listing with no guarantee of even a courtesy reply.

I go a lot on looks and personality. I’m sorry, but that is just the way it is. I’m no hunk but paint doesn’t peel off of a wall when I look at it. I lean towards cute girls within a certain weight range, but admit that I have found a major amount of stout women in those ads. (I now select ads only with photographs.)

I was once contacted by a woman who sounded very nice - I had placed an ad. We communicated by e-mail for a little bit and then she sent me a picture. I was unpleasantly stunned! She was in her 40’s and looked like a smaller edition of ** my deceased grandmother!** I cut the communication.

I contacted a very, very cute woman and never got a reply, but then, she was so cute that I assumed every Tom, Dick and Harry had E-mailed her.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I once was enamored with a lovely young woman whom a casual acquaintance, upon seeing her picture, commented that she looked like a dyke. I had a friend who was one of these nice guy, rugged individuals that women fell all over and he married a tallish, plain woman with a good personality. Another friend of mine married a short, cute little dark haired beauty – who changed after the wedding into a stout, mouthy vixen. (They divorced.)

I met a pretty little number on a trip once and we had some fun cruising with her sister, who knew a friend of mine. A couple of years later, I met her again and she was nasty! She had gone from slender and cute to – well – fat and bitchy looking. (When I met her again she was wearing shorts she should not have been trying to wear, and flip-flops on fat, big feet!)

I’ve met heavy people who have great personalities but they do not turn me on physically. I’ve met skinny people who are the same way. I prefer a ‘slender’ woman and she has to have the right personality.

I must admit, I’ve been stunned a few times when I see the person behind the ads on some of these sites. I find few that I am attracted to and most of them live too far away to make it worth my while. I have found many oriental women on oriental sites that draw me, but most of those places require a hefty fee just to mail them and some of those places point out the very, very hefty immigration fees you will have to pay to bring her over.

One of the main attractions for me is the woman’s face. It must range from cute to pretty. I actually tend to avoid very pretty women because they have a tendency to be rather popular and rather shallow. Plus, they don’t age well. (Look at Fara Fawcett.) I like Cyndi Lauper but while the Baywatch Babes are gorgeous, I think Cyndi would be the better choice.

Mary Tyler Moore had a cute face when young, but a skinny body. Too skinny. Today, she’s kind of saggy. (I cringed when I saw her in a tight body suit on one movie where she was in an exercise class.)

Now I’ve seem pretty (in my opinion) women with guys that I figure a dog would run howling from. (Example: Julia Roberts’ ex.) Ever watch COPS? I’ve seen pretty little women coming out to defend their fat, stinky looking, aggressive, ripped T-shirt wearing, greasy husbands or boyfriends and wondered why.

I’ve also met women with great bodies and faces that look hammered on for a while. Now I’ve lost weight for women who asked me to and I’ve had girl friends who have taken it off for me. I just do not find double chins, massive thighs, huge butts and spongy looking, big feet attractive.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

16

Lindsay is about as lightweight and superficial as anyone who has ever posted on this board.

17

She’s right though. Looks DO matter, and anyone who says otherwise is a liar or a fool.

It’s pretty well established through a considerable amount of experimentation that people favour good looking people over bad looking people in every respect, irrespective of gender or oritentation. A beautiful woman has a better chance of getting a job from another woman than a plain one, all other things being equal. Judgment based on looks is instinctive, and what Lindsay said - that women can use that to their advantage - is quite true. Women DO use that to their advantage, not that they’d admit it or are even conscious of it. Men do, too, albiet in different contexts.

That doesn’t excuse shallow behaviour, though. Being ATTRACTED to some people over others is perfectly natural and fine. Treating some people unfairly because of looks is something else entirely.

That said, as to the original point, I think it’s bullshit. I’ve known a fair number of beautiful women who were branded as snobbish who were, upon closer inspection, just shy or quiet. Conversely, shy or quiet women who aren’t knockouts never seem to get branded that way; the logical conclusion is that the “snob” or “stuck up” label is usually applied because the person applying it is subconsciously upset about his or her perception that the person is either unattainable as a sex partner or a threat in a peer group, as the case may be.

18

I think alot of the OPs observations are dependant on the sample he has looking at. People who put in personal ads are not nessasarily an good sampling of society in general. Now I know that there are very nice nice people who put ads in, and people who do it to just test the water, but most of the people who put ads in are kind of on the desperate side. And if you are “perfect” and deperate chances are you can find someone before putting an ad in. So most of the people who put the ad in have something “wrong” with them(in the sence of something about them is not the most desirable, either looks ,or personality, or money(for guys) isn’t the best). Also the people who feel that everything about them is “wrong”, will be less likely post at all and more likely to wallow in self pity. Bassically is saying I think the population of personal ads tends to have people who have one bad area of desirabliity.

Disclaimer Yeah I know this is full of generalizations.

19

Coldfire, what is your problem? Are you one of the fuglies?

It is a fact that rich men get the pretty women. Or haven’t you noticed that sometimes when a man marries he has a wife who is maybe okay, but of course he goes out inot the world, makes his bucks and then he can trade up fo a trophy wife.

Do you think there is something wrong with admitting that looks matter?

It is true. By the by, the only women who complain about being homely are the ones who don’t get the treatment given to the beauties.

I didn’t make society this way. However, if someone wants to treat me differently because of something I was born with, so what?

Haven’t you seen those tests done with babies, they - young as they are - show a preference for the more attractive faces.

Why do you think Cindy Crawford gets paid to pose? It is because she is gorgeous. She has a Fibonocci ratio of 1/1.
Tom Cruise is a 1/2 ratio.

The more symmetrical the face, the higher the attractiveness is rated.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being superfical.

If it makes you feel better, go study whatever you think is intellectual or whatever.

I, however, will avoid like hell anyone and everyone who wans to tell me how the world is going to hell, we are so alone, and boo, hoo, hoo.

Don’t feel that way, and I am not listening.

Let me also add that one fellow told me, god knows why, that he would not have been attracted to me if I hadn’t taken my jacket off and he saw my chest. Poor dear, he must have heard some feminist rot about don’t treat us like sex objects.

He looked stunned when I told him so what, and that if I hadn’t found him so attractive I wouldn’t have looked at him either.

Jeesh!

I happen to like looking at skinny, pretty women as well as handsome, tall men.

Listen to Tom Leykis, he gets accused of being a woman hater for pointing out that men like good looking women.

Of course, that is from women who will say they are not so hot.

Looks matter a great deal. Height matters too.

Taller men, the ones 6 feet and over, get paid more.

Tall men also attract more women.

This is simple biology. If a woman is good looking she willl get more perks from men, who hope to get into her panties.

Heck, even the most beautiful women seem to be insecure.
There will always be someone else who is younger, slimmer, or has a more pleasing face, it is always something.

I’d love to look like Princess Diana, only I’d keep my hair longer than she wore hers.

What is so wrong with admitting that beauty matters, a lot?

This is nothing to get angry about. It just is what it is.

20

Coldfire wrote words to the effect that said that the most heartless bastard who swept me off my feet with a 911 Turbo only to leave for a younger lass with bigger boobs served me right.

Excuse me, I NEVER said I was swept off my feet by anyone.

You are answering things I never said.

What I do say is that being a good looker helps a lot.

Ever notice that if a pretty, skinny gal is waiting for a taxi alongside a homely person, the pretty gal will get the first offer?

Men and women respond to beauty. Men reward the prettier gals with jobs, money or whatever they can give.

This is because a girl is born with certain features which makes her face more pleasing than others.

All I am doing is stating what we all know is true.

Being beautiful gives you one hell of a boost in getting what you want.

I know some stunning women who are sweet as can be, they are also very shy.

My sis is one. She is 5’7", weighs 118, has long, straight blonde hair and blue eyes. She knows how to put it together. She is also extremely shy. Her husband isn’t that great looking, but he gives her everything.

She didn’t ask to be born with her looks. It sure as hell paid off, though.