In many threads regarding unwanted attention (generally in the form of guys hitting on women) the topic of physical attraction comes up. More specifically, this mistaken belief that women only find “ugly” guys’ behavior creepy: “If he looked like Tom Cruise she wouldn’t have thought it creepy!”.
I think this is a huge steaming pile of horseshit, something schlubby guys complain about to rationalize their inappropriate behavior. Discussing the matter with my wife, she pointed out to me that for some women, it’s the opposite problem:
Handsome guys can be plenty creepy to women, and it’s often worse because nobody assumes a really handsome looking person is going to act like a creep. So when it does happen, people are less likely to believe the woman. Some women take the guys appearance as an assurance they can let their guard down and get burned as a result.
Conversely, the schlubby guys seem to fall on the extreme end of the spectrum. Either they are so self conscious they will be judged by their appearance from women that they avoid doing anything that might come off as creepy, or they double down on cluelessness and act really pushy/annoying around women in social situations.
At my work I have also witnessed this first-hand. Guys that creep on women (particularly young women) on the bus don’t always have that “creepy guy” look to them. Often the guy looked completely benign, until some 15 year old girl sits across from them and the man is going on an on about what a cute top she’s wearing and how nicely she fills it out and what school does she attend? :eek:
MRA type guys seem to think women make these arbitrary value judgements on men and act like their safety is based on the man’s sexual attractiveness. When in reality, women tend to evaluate a man’s actions and base their safety off that. It’s not whether the guy looks ugly or not, it’s whether his behavior or appearance is out of place for the setting.
Women are not as judgmental of male looks as men are of women, or women are of other women. It’s like we’ve all been taught to objectify women or something!
I like the definition of creepiness as “skipping proper steps toward intimacy.” There’s a guy at work who creeps me out, but he’s no less or more attractive than anyone else there, and he’s married like other men there, so he’s typical–except he asks me incredibly personal questions, gives me personal advice even after being told to stop (and not subtly), and goes in for frequent, unwanted touching.
That’s behavior, not physicality.
I don’t think it would be different if I was actually looking for a man… I just assume that, because they’re men, all men are more or less available to me. But Surreal posited a link between creepy/unwanted behavior and unattractive females. Can we get any testimony from the men about unwanted advances and demographics?
Yes, that’s a great example. I met a guy this weekend (was with my husband, etc.) and he dove in pretty quickly on some more in-depth questions than I’d expected, to the point where I was thinking “we just met, why are you asking me this?” as if he was interviewing me or something. Do that with deeply personal stuff and you will freak someone the fuck out.
Because just as men favor attractive women, women favor attractive men. We are more forgiving of those we are attracted too. So it’s true, but maybe not to the extent that some men believe. You can’t go by the things men say about this situation any more than you can believe in the large number of lesbians creepy guys say they meet.
I think some are reading this to literal. To me it is quite obvious this is true with stuff that is borderline.
Cute guy breaks into your house and smells your underwear - creepy
Ugly guy breaks into your house and smells your underwear - creepy
Cute guy calls you 5 minutes after your date to make sure you got to your car ok - sweet
Ugly guy you aren’t interested calls you in 5 minutes after your date to make sure you got to car ok - creepy
In the second two examples - assume both guys got the same feeling you were interested - turns out one was wrong - not necessarily his fault - he was trying to be sweet - but it came across as creepy based off his dates lack of attraction.
I think it’s the guys projecting their own bias on women. If some fuggo was hitting on them, it would be creepy. But if it were a hotty it would be welcomed.
I was on a project once where a woman came on to me very obviously. For a mental picture of her looks and personality think a cross between Roseann Barr and a wood chipper. When I rebuffed her come-ons, a rumor promptly started around the office that I was gay.
So guys certainly don’t have the market cornered on creepy/unwanted behavior.
Probably “pushy” for the second guy, because most women who were not attracted to their date would think they were broadcasting “obvious” (or not) signs that they didn’t want to deal with the dude any longer.
Creepy behavior is definitely a lack of understanding of boundaries, and I think its the product of either bad advice or good advice taken wayyy too literally:
“Meet women in social settings involving shared interests”
*Joins a meetup group for hiking, aggressively hits on every woman in the group *
“Be assertive!” Repeatedly invades personal space of women, repeatedly asks them out even though they say no every time
“Try to make friends with women before dating them” Befriends women solely to get in their yoga pants, gets offended they arent interested in anything more than a friendship, continues hanging around them desperately hoping they’ll change their mind, feels betrayed when they start dating a guy that isnt manipulative and clingy
Maybe some guys find it easier to tell themselves it was just based on looks instead of confronting the possibility that there’s something deficient in their personality or the way they interact with women.
I admit, this advice and the previous thread have got me thinking about my own behavior in Meetup groups. I go primarily to pick up someone/get laid, and I’m disappointed when it doesn’t work out, or I’m judgmental of the pickings, or I’m too intimidated to go if I don’t feel pretty.
So thanks! I will be working on relaxing, letting go, and becoming more activity-focused.
I think so. It’s easier on our ego to blame failure on something outside our control than something preventable.
Guys: if a woman is standing like she thinks she’s about to get beaned by an errant baseball, probably not a good time to try to kiss her, no matter how handsome she thinks you look!
Hitting on a woman who made eye contact, is smiling, etc - not creepy
Hitting on a woman who is furiously trying to bury her face in a book, with gigantic don’t talk to me headphones - creepy
Attractive men probably get a lot more positive signals, so when an observer who doesn’t twig to social signals see attractive men hitting on women, and only rarely getting called creepy, and unattractive men hitting on women and more frequently getting called creepy, and conclude that it is the attractiveness rather than the ignoring social cues that determine the creepiness.
It’s more like “Guy you were still interested in”/“Guy you really aren’t interested in after the date”. There will be some correlation with cute/not cute, but not much: if not-cute guy was out of the running on account of looks, you wouldn’t have gone out with him to begin with.
There’s a flip side to this, as well: women who are unattractive are often the target of creepy behavior (as often? more often? Who can say?) but their complaints can sometimes be dismissed as basically implausible, because they aren’t obviously fuck-material. So people think they are flattering themselves, or that they are overreacting, or that they misunderstood. But being creepy can be about power, or a mistaken belief that less attractive women are easy lays.
I know plenty of women that I’ve witnessed do exactly what the OP presents as total horseshit. I’m not saying the other points aren’t equally valid but don’t be so naive to assume it doesn’t happen.
Friend: “Ugh, such a creeper” after a perfectly normal but not “hot” guy tried to start up a convo in a bar with her.
Me: “What did he do? He just tried to chat with you.”
Friend: “Exactly!”
Me: “If that dude was hot, you’d have been perfectly fine with him approaching you and saying the exact same thing!”
Her: “DUH!”
I’ve had that convo and variants of it with many of my women friends, past girlfriends, and even my wife.
Seriously though, I don’t think it’s to do with cute/ugly. If I went on a blind date with a guy who was very conventionally handsome, but who, I dunno, lived for football and was looking for a good helpmeet to give him a quiverfull of children, I would no doubt give off “no thanks” signals like mad, and find that 5 minute follow up call creepy.
ETA:
MeanJoe, there is a school of thought that in successful m/f romantic overtures, the woman is actually the person who initiates. She does this by making eye contact, leaning toward the man, playing with her hair, smiling and laughing, and so on. And yes, a hot looking guy is more likely to get that signal. But the “ew creeper” reaction could be due to an “uninvited” man trying to engage in a flirting script that the woman is not participating in, rather than offense at mere ugliness.
